7 Ways to Know If You Are Becoming a Fundamentalist
March 5th, 2010 by Todd JohnsonWe’ve been talking about the Pharisees lately.. so I thought this might be some helpful clarification from Mark Driscoll. God help us to not be Pharisees!!!
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Well, that was painful. I think I am or have been guilty of every indication you’re a Pharisee. (Possibly not the last one, but if he’d elaborated I’m sure I would’ve been nailed.) This was the best, yet hardest eight minutes and forty-one seconds of my day. Thank you.
PS Is that Pharisee Anthony Quinn?
Yep… it is Quinn.. played a small part in one of movies about Christ.
Blessings… tw
Not only is it easy to become a Pharisee or at least adopt that attitude, it is also easy to make pharisees out of our leaders. It is part of our sheep nature. It is so much easier to just follow along and constantly be spoon fed then it is to dig into the Word for myself and to put my trust in the Holy Spirit to teach me what I need to know. I must say that from personal experience the latter is so much more rewarding. Then the great teaching we get on Sunday goes from being my only life line to God and becomes more of a sign post to keep me on the right path.
Short and to the point — Amen and thanks
“methodolatry”…awesome. Good stuff…thx for posting this.
A lot of thought provoking and convicting points in here. But come on. “They’re joyless, and that’s why their kids leave home and rebel…?”
Strongly disagree.
Good point, Mellie. We were tons of joy, and our kids still rebelled, didn’t they? (I’m not saying that sarcastically. We had a good time.)
Hard to hear, but very edifying. Thanks Todd…I needed to hear this…
Would this teaching by Driscoll fall under his category as fallible?
Joe – yes it would.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing when I watched it…
Nice to see that Driscoll came ready for the Army / Boy Scout meeting after church.
In all seriousness this is very convicting but also a bit also maybe a bit paralyzing. How do we stand for Christ, against the world, even in the church if need be, and not become what Driscoll is describing here? Especially when that seems to be the default response to any conviction these days: “You’re being a pharisee/legalistic.”
I look at people like Luther, Edwards, Spurgeon, even Driscoll and they could be described in the bullet points here. I don’t want to be a pharisee but I also want to be passionate and zealous for Christ and challenge those around me.
It’s not that I disagree with what is said here, but I’m struggling on how to apply it.
It’s interesting to me that some of you found controversy in this. I just thought they were a handful of great points and warnings.
Just curious, that’s all.
Oh well.. what’s a blog for if not a little controversy & disagreement once in a while
Well it wouldn’t be Mark Driscoll if a few people didn’t strongly disagree.
Hmmmmmm? Good conversation starter Todd…:)
Great stuff. Thanks Todd.
Is this not the reason there are so many ‘different’ denominations? People leave churches all the time because of some, usually insignificant, thing that they disagree with in structure, teaching, or other. This video is so right on target. It is hard not to be a Pharisee in some areas, but so necessary if you want to reach people for Christ.
for me his best point was humility,if I embrass humility and just Love Jesus,I seem to stay out of a lot of trouble.
Todd – When are you going to post on last Sunday’s message? Good stuff to discuss!
I guess I am confused by the title of this blog “7 ways to know if you are becoming a fundamentalist”.
Is “fundamentalism” not good for a Christian.? I thought this is what a Calvary Chapel was all about – getting back to the fundamental basics – God’s Word and nothing but God’s Word.
It would seem that the story of the Pharisees is being twisted again into the catch-phrase of legalism. Christ’s interaction with the Pharisees was first and foremost an illustration of HIS way of salvation through grace versus the Pharisees’ way of “legalism” that had been perverted by the Pharisees – that of having to follow the law that not even the Pharisees followed.
Paul further illustrates this in Romans 7.
Hello Paul!
Here’s my thoughts and reason for posting this. And I’ll attempt to just answer a couple of your points to keep on track..
[Is “fundamentalism” not good for a Christian.? I thought this is what a Calvary Chapel was all about – getting back to the fundamental basics – God’s Word and nothing but God’s Word.]
Yes we believe certain things to be fundamentally true and God’s Word to be entirely true.
[It would seem that the story of the Pharisees is being twisted again into the catch-phrase of legalism.]
No twisting here.. Legalism and Phariseeism are most definitely synonymous. Here’s why…
[Christ’s interaction with the Pharisees was first and foremost an illustration of HIS way of salvation through grace versus the Pharisees’ way of “legalism”]
That’s not all it was.. not by a long shot. Jesus had no problem with their abiding by the Scriptures, it was the traditions that they had heaped on top of the Scriptures that killed the people.. Mark 7:6-8 And he (Jesus) said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ 8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
This is what Driscoll is going after and what I want to go after in my own heart.. the tendency of putting things that are not FUNDAMENTAL on par with things which are. His examples of “teachers.. music styles.. Bible translations.. etc.” which Christian’s can be so prone to baptize into orthodoxy.
The Pharisees were not only wrong about how one is saved, but how one is to live as well. Christians (myself included) need to be reminded from time to time of what is essential and what is not, and to not confuse the two (The open hand & closed hand analogy).
The word FUNDAMENTALIST is probably the confusion here. I’m using the word as a synonym for ELITIST and SEPARATIST.
I hope that this helps to explain what is behind this post, even if we still disagree on the use of the term.
We are governed by some people in Washington who think they know better. The Pharisees knew better, the Popes knew better, the dictators knew better, the revolutionaries knew better, WOE unto those so called Christians who know better not to go to Church and partake of Communion with the Body of Christ, and those in the churches who think that entering the church building on a regular basis makes them safe from the coming RATH! I MUST repent of my own pharisyism right when I catch myself in such a thought! Live out your own salvation with a HOLY fear and trembling.
“How do we stand for Christ, against the world, even in the church if need be, and not become what Driscoll is describing here?”
Good point, Levi…
How do we know when God is using us or if we are trapped in our own sin? I think Galatians 5:16-26 is helpful to determine this …if the fruit of the Spirit is evident to the people around us – the people that the Holy Spirit is trying to reach out to, then I think we’re on the right track.
I really appreciate Todd’s in depth response. My biggest concern that I have seen is the extreme overuse of “legalism”, by Christians, to ward off “judgement” albeit really “admonishment” by fellow Christians. “Oh, you shouldn’t judge me … you’re a legalist, a Pharisee”. It just seems that we are so prone to finding an excuse for behavior rather than as Christians following God’s Word.
I’d like to offer some words on this that I’ve found very helpful from a Pastor Gil Rugh in the midwest:
The tendency may be to take the list and evaluate the lives of others by it. “Aha!” you gloat, “I am sure he violates principles two, seven and nine, so he is wrong.” That is not the correct approach. These are questions you are to ask yourself in order to evaluate your own life. You may think other Christians are doing things they should not, but the test is for you. How do you measure up?
Our concern should be that believers use their freedom prop-
erly. Of course, there is a danger that we can become legalistic. Guidelines become legalism when we set a list of rules in areas where the Scriptures do not speak and indicate that these are standards which will make you more pleasing to God. There is nothing wrong with standards, laws and regulations. The problem comes when you indicate that adhering to those rules or standards makes you more acceptable to God. Sometimes our young people go off to Bible college and after encountering a few rules complain, “Oh, they are legalistic.” The college very well may tell you that you cannot do this or you cannot do that; or you must do this and you must do that. Such rules are not necessarily legalism. When I went to Bible college, we were not allowed to attend movies. There were also some other things we were not allowed to do. But they never said it would make me more acceptable to God not to do those things. They simply said that those were the rules of the school, and as long as I chose to stay there, I would have to abide by them. That is not legalism. The school administration had the perfect right to set those rules.
Such rules were no more legalistic than being asked to sit on a
seat rather than in the aisle when you come to church. Sitting on the seat does not make you more acceptable to God, it just makes you
more acceptable at church! Therefore, we must be careful not to identify every law or regulation that a Christian might set down as legalism. But when the standard which is set down is designed to
make you more acceptable and more spiritual before God, then it
becomes legalism.
We do not want to drift to that extreme. By the same token, we
do not want to swing the other way either. I was terribly disturbed
recently when a Christian who was formerly an alcoholic went into
the home of some believers and was served a drink of alcohol. It
was devastating to him. Such action violates the principles of con-
duct we have seen here.
I think my main concern was prompted due to the use of an example from Mr. Driscol who has a HUGE church in Seattle and has stirred up a lot of controversy with his questionable methods, and one could easily argue, stretching / adding to God’s Word. The likes of well-known pastors with great integrity have begun to question his ministry; such as John Macarthur, John Piper, and even “our” Chuck Smith.
If im not mistaken John MacArthur doesn’t like Driscol because he has a potty mouth and drinks beer. Seems pretty pharisee to me.
John Piper had Driscol come to a DG conference were he was given free reign to “slam” the pharisees. here is the link.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Conferen ceMessages/ByConference/41/3261_How_Sharp_the_Edge_Christ_Co ntroversy_and_Cutting_Words/
Maybe not Chuck Smith directly, but Calvary Chapel definitely, has been critical of just about every denomination and creed besides their own. I know based on listening to a thousand or more messages from Calvary teachers. Most if not all have criticized doctrine, creed or denomination.
Just stating what I think to be completely accurate. I would refrain from heaping up 3 teachers against 1 teacher on a thread about not following teachers or teaching too “fundamentally.”
I mean no disrespect. Accusation slinging is ugly.
Mike,
Potty mouth would be a nice comment about Driscol. Have you heard some his sermons that have caused this? There are more than a few places where God specifically dislikes this:
Two Examples – Ephesians 4:29 (New International Version)
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Ephesians 5:4
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
The worst by Driscol, that exploded the controversy, is his essentially “rewriting” of the Song of Solomon into a soft porn harlequin romance. Listen to it if you dare – it is available online.
One Example – Proverbs 30:5-7 (New International Version)
5 “Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
By this, he is watering down his Christian witness …. after all, Christ didn’t rewrite scripture or use a “potty mouth” to get His message across when he was here. There is no excuse and Driscol generally gives the Christian witness a black eye. Driscol is in essence saying that God’s Word isn’t good enough, it isn’t “seedy” enough, in this case. You have to make it like the world so all the unbelievers will enjoy it and maybe they’ll come to church …. because of that? How about they come because the Holy Spirit has convicted them to come? If this is “being a Pharisee” then all the verses about admonishing a fellow believer mean nothing. I guess God just wanted to fill up space.
Lastly, there was a reason Calvary Chapels came into being and that is because of the many perverse “denominations” that have been established by men and have twisted God’s Word for their own purposes. Calvary Chapel was designed to get back to the fundamentals, God’s Word and only God’s Word. If we do not “criticize” what is not of God out there, like many of the distorted denominations, you are in fact not doing what God has asked us to do in keeping HIS Word, and HIS Way, pure – salvation by Grace and Grace alone.
Paul & Mike – Driscoll and Chuck (Calvary Pastors) are men that love God, worship Jesus, teach the Bible and serve the church WELL. They (we, pastors) are but men, and they would admit to have made mistakes, as do I (James 3:1-2).
I’ve been listening to Chuck and the many pastors that make up Calvary Chapel for decades.. and there have been many mistakes made along the way.
I’ve been listening to Driscoll for years now as well (and he’s the first to admit to mistakes), but the designation of “cussing pastor” (or potty mouth as you referred to him) is completely unwarranted. His series on the Song of Solomon isn’t for everyone, but it isn’t heresy either. He is a solid teacher and doctrinally sound.. as is Chuck Smith.
Paul & Mike – anyone’s welcome to open a blog and attack anyone they’d like. This blog doesn’t exist for that purpose. So please allow name calling and the efight to come to a close on this one.
Please and thank you.
Guys,
But, it’s also reminded me that although they’re great men, they’re also just treasures in jars of clay, like me and my homies at Crossroads. Anyway, check this out: Blessings, brothers.
It sounds like the moderator wants to let this rest, but you might, like me find a gentle rebuke in the following article. I am the quintessential “Preacher-groupie”, really terrible. I love to get really attached to great leaders, almost to the point of sin, because I divide if someone else doesn’t share my adoration. I’ve followed pretty closely the dispute between our dear brothers, Mac and Driscoll. Frankly, it’s bummed me out a lot, because I admire them both tremendously. (In fact, Mike, I’d watch it, making remarks about ‘ole Johnny. A She-bear just may come out of the woods at ye.
http://www.irishcalvinist.com/?p=4053
I love Piper
I love Mac
I love D man
I owe Calvary my salvation (in essence)
read their books, listened to their sermons. MacArthur literally changed my perspective on the depravity of the human condition. (rest assured mother bear) Just got my tail feathers up over the leveraging of 3 pastors against the one. All these men will dine at the marriage feast of the Lamb together… cant wait.
Mike, that actually made me get a lump in my throat, picturing those guys eating together-
Also, I think the “I loves….” and “I owe….” would make a nice little ditty. You should write some music for it.
Maybe Michele… I have trouble writing ditties. I always go for the epics and get ruined in the attempt.
Clarification on the “potty mouth” comment. I deliver mail for a living. “Grace to You” had a mailing called “My case against the R-Rated church” The title was next to a picture of a bar of soap with tooth marks in it. (quite amusing actually). “Potty mouth” was my interpretation. Again I mean no disrespect. Love you all.
Pastor Todd, Michele, Mike, and others,
Are we not supposed to defend our faith, and the “unadulterated” gospel?
This has nothing to do with “being against” Driscol, or “for” Macarthur.
It has everything to do with “rightly handling the word of truth.”
Macarthur and Piper both tried to approach / reproach Driscol privately, but to no avail.
2 Timothy 2:14-16:
14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness
We are not quarreling about words, we are questioning the right handling of the word of truth. The gospel, God’s Word, the church, is getting so watered down by the world today in the name of being “seeker friendly”. The church seems to have lost its “fight” for Christ. This really concerns me and it seems should concern all those who read this.
I read the link Michele gave. It was right on. We should not be arguing about “my pastor is better than yours” as Paul was talking about in the referenced verse. And, indeed, this is not the issue here.
Are we all becoming afraid of ardently defending God’s Word, and only His Word, as HE wrote it, and not as men distort it in the name of growing “their” church under the guise that this is bringing more people to church?
We plant the seeds, God grows them. If we start watering those seeds with “fake water” instead of “living water” we are starting to widen the narrow path that God prescribes for salvation. When the real width of that path becomes apparent many will fall off unknowingly that would not have had they been offered the true hard facts of needing Christ because of our sinful nature.
Instead Mr. Driscol feels God’s Word is not good enough and must “enrich” it with worldliness.
A Sunday sermon on oral sex by Driscoll? Ya, I’m sure Christ would have loved that. And why?
Pastor Todd, you say that Driscol’s “potty mouth” or his designation as “cussing pastor” ….. “is completely unwarranted”?
Have you listened to Driscoll? Especially have you listened to his Song of Solomon series? Does God want any of us “adulterating” (for lack of a better word) the Word of God like this instead of treating this book, and the act of marriage, with the beauty and passion God intended? From Paul …..
I Cor 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
I agree that we all need to make loving of each other, in Christ, and through Christ, the most important, especially being careful to not quarrel among each other. However, and VERY important – in doing this, we are to love each other enough, as Christ did, to admonish each other when we get off track. Colossians 3:16 (ESV) 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom.
Colossians 2:8 (ESV) 8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ.
I will end with a quote from the New York Times in an article specifically about Driscoll:
“Their approach was “seeker sensitive”: upon learning that many people didn’t go in for stained glass and steeples, these pastors made their churches look like shopping malls. Complex theology intimidated the curious, and talk of damnation alienated potential converts — so they played down doctrine in favor of upbeat, practical teachings on the Christian life.”
I do not wish to quarrel, or be controversial, but we are NOT to compromise God’s Word, His message, or allow others to do so at the expense of believers or unbelievers getting a watered down, distorted worldly message as opposite to “God’s Word, and nothing but God’s Word”.
This IS what the Pharisees were guilty of.
Sorry TJ, but I’m up here watching this thread, knowing full well I really should not join in, but man I just gotta….
Crossroads Church is currently in a converted strip mall, but I think that’s mainly due to the fact that there’s a shortage of steeples and stained glass windows in Nevada Co. as opposed to Crossroads Church being watered down and “seeker-sensitive”. I never actually thought I’d see the NYT quoted on the ToddBlog.
I think the point to post #27 was (clearly) to get this thread back on the subject of the posted video clip, NOT the character, style or ministerial philosophy of the guy in the clip. So…
Do ya agree with what was said? Anything more to add to this subject? Any Scripture references to share that pertain to this subject? (The video FEATURES Driscoll- of whom no one as yet has referred to as a heretic or false teacher- it’s not ABOUT Driscoll) Is Driscoll a “Fundamentalist” or “Pharisee” because of this what he said in this clip?
Just trying to help.
And Mike, I’ve also listened to 1000+ “Calvary” sermons (OK, I’m guessing actually), and all I know is I’m still a sinner saved by grace.
TJ- Sorry, I’m back out now.
TCA (#33) – I have been around the block a few times and know that when you use or quote someone there is a tendency for people to believe you are a supporter of all that the person does or says…guilt by association. It’s unfortunate but it is something we must deal with. There is a lot of truth out there and if we are alert we can grab it from anywhere because we know the Author of that truth because He is Truth.
So, in short, I found the video an instructive reminder of the dangers I face in my walk of becoming the older brother (anyone remember “The Prodigal God”?)
TCA – thanks for bringing us back on task…
All I know is that after yesterdays sermon about the Pharisees all I feel is a need for brokenness in my heart. I find it so hard to point the finger at anyone when I truly understand the depth of my own depravity, and to be perfectly honest, I really don’t think I know even the half of it.
As far as being critical of what some pastors are teaching out there, fine, disagree. But don’t attack. The heart and burden of a true shepherd does not lead him to go after other shepherds who don’t follow his methods or interpretations. Shepherds go after WOLVES! Wolves eat sheep! Lets direct our righteous anger at the myriad of wolves out there who are literally devouring lives!
Well said Perry.
I hesitate to respond to Paul at this point, but I’ll just say this and then leave it alone. (I hope)
Paul (above) said, [Are we not supposed to defend our faith, and the “unadulterated” gospel? This has nothing to do with “being against” Driscol, or “for” Macarthur. It has everything to do with “rightly handling the word of truth.” Macarthur and Piper both tried to approach / reproach Driscol privately, but to no avail.]
MacArthur, Piper, Driscoll, Chuck, ALL preach the “unadulterated gospel”. Show me one instance where they’ve corrupted or denied it. All of these guys disagree in finer points, but completely agree on the basic and main things.
Piper had Driscoll speak at his conference. (these men love and admire eachother)
Driscoll had Piper speak at his church (just a few weeks ago)
GREG LAURIE took the opportunity to spend time with Driscoll just a few weeks ago during a visit to So Cal.
And I know many, many more Calvary pastors that thank God for a Mark Driscoll.
None of these guys believe for a second that he in any way preaches another gospel, or that he’s “adulterated” it.
As I said, this is probably just going to unleash more silliness, and Mark doesn’t need my defense. But since I was named as one that might not defend the “unadulterated gospel”.. I thought I’d make it clear that I do. And I love and appreciate all others that do, Mark Driscoll included.
After watching the Driscoll clip, reading the posts, then back and watching the clip again, I would say that 1) Driscoll has given us an accurate exhortation to not become a religious person with the characteristics of the pharisees. Personally, I don’t want Jesus YELLING at me as He did the pharisees. I don’t want Jesus IGNORING me as he did Herod and I don’t want to hear the 7 bad words “depart from Me, I never knew you” from Him. I think Driscoll’s message applies to each of us personally as well as to our churches we attend and to the movements or denominations that we hold to. 2) It seems that some of the weaker brothers take issue with the freedoms of the stronger and are stumbled and therefore are missing the point of message or are distracted from it. Thanks Todd once again for keeping things on track.
Scott said:
“It seems that some of the weaker brothers take issue with the freedoms of the stronger and are stumbled and therefore are missing the point of message or are distracted from it.”
What, is the pot not stirred up enough that you need to make a statement like that and get things boiling again? Jee wiz bro!!!