An Apology
September 28th, 2009 by Todd JohnsonJames 3:1-2 ESV
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
Without question the most painful part of pastoral ministry is to know that one does not always speak for God or represent God correctly. Anyone that takes the ministry of teaching and preaching as seriously as he should has lost sleep on occasion over the looseness of his tongue and the consequences when that happens in the pulpit.
It has come to my attention that I might have misspoken this past Sunday in reference to the Mormon missionaries that came to my door, and I would like to both apologize and clarify.
First, an apology. I fear that I came across as uncaring, arrogant and rude. My exchange with the missionaries was very direct but it was not in any way rude. I don’t want anyone to get the impression that I was demeaning these young men or treating them with disrespect, and I fear that I didn’t communicate that properly. Please forgive me for that.
Second, some clarification. As I attempted to make clear but probably failed to do so, we must be compassionate toward the missionaries while showing no compassion for their mission, message, and destruction they are causing. If the Bible is true and Jesus God made flesh, then there is not a worse message on planet earth than the message of the cults regardless of their sincerity or seriousness of purpose. Their message is damnable and not to be smiled at because they look and act respectably. One woman walked out of our morning service and was upset that our church does not believe that Mormons go to heaven. That is how doctrinally out of touch many in the church actually are. I couldn’t agree more that we should not ridicule such a person or treat them in a rude manner, but to treat their message with the same respect is not Biblical or loving.
All that said, I am very, very sorry that I gave the wrong impression Sunday morning.
This week has provided me another good opportunity to check my heart, attitude & words. I take my position more seriously than any will know, and I pray God’s forgiveness if I have not represented Him well.
Here is a sampling of a conversation that I had with an ” elder” in downtown Auburn.
Me…The Bible says that all that call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why do I need a new revelation? And am I saved by that account?
Elder…Well, We have a new Revelation that is an addition to the Bible that contains a ” Complete” Revelation. God saw that man was bad after Jesus died and resurrected for them. Because of this, God took away his Holy Spirit after the last Apostle died. He reinstated the Holy Spirit with the Ministry of Joseph Smith.
Me… Let me get this right. Jesus died on the Cross BECAUSE we were sinners and could not save ourselves and you are telling me that because man was Bad he took it away? You have to be kidding me. What would be the point of the resurrection and the free gift of Grace? What are they teaching you?
Elder…I have my testimony that burns in me ( something like that ) that tells me it is true.
Me..Well unless your testimony lines up with the Bible your testimony is not the final authority.
Elder…Nice speaking with you….and she walks away.
Michele,thats right I now seem to recall you calling them that. What a blessing a night with the kids. I’ll still pray for you
I am involved with a ministry that builds relationships with and reaches out to Mormons in southern California, and also goes to Utah to have dialogues with students at BYU and other universities.
The most effective way to interact with Mormons is to have a strong understanding of Evangelical doctrine and know Scripture. Then, when you come into contact with Mormons and they tell you their beliefs, you will be able to point them to Scripture that contradicts their heresy.
It is also important to ask them to define the terms that they use, because they will often say things that sound exactly like Evangelical beliefs, but they actually mean totally different things.
For example, Mormons will say that Jesus’ death on the cross brought salvation. However, because of their view of the Godhead, their belief is completely different from ours. They believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all different in essence and are three separate beings. Therefore, when we sinned, we offended and were separated from all three of them. They believe that accepting Jesus’ death on the cross justifies them in the Son’s eyes, but it is still necessary to perform ordinances such as baptism and temple marriage to be justified in the Father’s eyes. Therefore, Christ’s death was not sufficient to save them.
One of the things that saddens me the most is when Mormons, particularly the missionaries, talk about how hostile and hateful Evangelicals are toward them. In the ministry I am involved with, we believe it is important to engage with Mormons and let them tell us about their beliefs, then lovingly take them to our Scripture and explain why what we believe is different. In our experiences, when you start out with Mormons just telling them that they believe a false gospel and they are going to Hell, they shut down and will not be receptive to the truth that you then try to bring to them.
There is one Mormon “Brother” (by title only) who I have spoken with several times. At first, he would skirt around issues and try to say that we believe the same things, but now he recognizes that there are irreconcilable differences in what we believe. He said just last week, “Well, I guess in the end, it’s going to come down to one of us is right and one of us is wrong.” It is now up to us to continue proclaiming to truth to him, and pray that the Holy Spirit would do a work in his heart, but I know that he would not have gotten to this point if we had begun by blatantly telling him, “You believe a false gospel, you’re part of a cult, and if you don’t repent, you’re going to Hell!”
I hope all this has been beneficial to some of you.
Matthew #53 Amen 2Tim 2:24-26
These posts have started some interesting discussions in our house. I’ve really been convicted about my attitude towards “Them” knocking at my door (whether Mormon or JW). Rather than being excited about someone coming to my home wanting to talk bout their faith, I’ve not only ignored them, but also encouraged my children to do the same. My typical response would be, “Don’t answer the door, be real quiet and pretend we’re not home.” What a terrible example I’ve set!
I know part of the reason for my response has been feeling inadequate to share with them, but more of it was that I felt it an inconvenience and an intrusion into my life and my space.
I need to get busy and be prepared so that I can “be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in me”. Even if I’d share a small seed, God can take that seed and water it make it grow. Matthew, can you recommend a book that explains how their definitions differ from ours, or any resources that would help us be better prepared to understand what they really believe?
I wonder who’ll be at my door tomorrow?
June, I read “Peace Child” by Don Richardson years ago. I remember some of the stories blowing me away. I’ve heard of “Eternity” and would like to read that as well.
Tom- Wow, the last sentence of your comment is one I’m going to write down:
“I think where we go wrong is we believe God when He talks and tells us about who He is. But we don’t like or fully believe Him when He tells us who we are.”
OK–this whole idea that God can and possibly does save people who don’t receive the gospel–I want you to know it’s nothing I’m confident enough to declare as true, not a sure doctrine, I mean, I felt sort of freaky even while I was typing because it might sound loosey-goosey, or disrespectful to the work of Christ.
But, no, I do believe only the work of Christ can save us. I believe it has always been the work of Christ that has saved the believer. The penal substitution of the Son of God, Him in our place, Jesus the Christ, absorbing the wrath of the Father on behalf of sinful man–this is the only way to be forgiven and justified before a Holy God. And it’s by faith and repentance that this great salvation comes to us. I also see scripture teaches that this faith comes to us only as a gift from God, and the Holy Spirit must open our eyes and bring us light to see our sin so that we might repent.
However, it may be possible that this salvation is given to people who’ve not heard the gospel, the story of the death and resurrection of Christ.
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” Hebrews 11:1
God commended the ancients for simply believing in One they couldn’t see, one they hoped for.
“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” Heb. 11:4
The writer of Hebrews describes that simply believing in a Creator is faith that is honored by God.
“By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man…” Heb.11:4
Abel was given a small revelation and acted on it, and is commended as “righteous” or justified. It had to be the blood of Christ credited to him, just as Abraham.
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” Heb. 11:6
This is the most rudimentary faith being described, yet it’s all that many of the people the writer goes on to describe possessed. Noah, Enoch, Abraham, had no Law, no Moses, no New Testament, yet they looked to a God they knew had created everything they saw. They put their hope in Him, and believed He’d take care of Him and He did. They seemed to have an idea that He demanded a sacrifice, and they offered it, in faith, not knowing that it was a picture of His son.
Do you think it’s possible there are still people like that? Psalm 19 and Romans 1 tells us that night after night the heavens pour forth a witness that He exists, and day after day, our conscience screams that we’re guilty. Every man is given this. If the ancients put their faith in an unseen God, and were commended, why wouldn’t they be today? Does God change because of the Cross?
Some things Jesus said lead me to think that it is in rejecting Him, rejecting the Gospel, that men are damned. In John 9:35 Jesus heals a blind man, who believes and declares Jesus to be the “Son of Man”.
“Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgement I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see your guilt remains.”
If they hadn’t seen him, their might have been forgiven, but by their rejection, they were damned.
He also said:
“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses you believe Me , for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe what I wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
He’s indicating that they’re “accused” or condemned by the Law. They’ve been given a great revelation, and because of their legalistic works-righteousness, their disobedience, they’re mis-interpretation of it, they’ll be condemned by it. What if you’re given nothing but Creation? Could it be that God judges a man’s faith according to what he’s been given?
Jesus alluded to this idea a lot–that people are judged by their response to the light they’re given:
“The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for the repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.” Matth. 12:41
and again,
“And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
The strictest, most severe judgement of all seems to be reserved for those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it and the greatest blessing for those who hear and believe. Notice in the gospels how many times Jesus associates great condemnation for those who hear and don’t believe, who reject. And in either case, I believe this brings the greatest glory to God, salvation and judgement, through those who hear the gospel. This is why we must evangelize. (Also, we’re clearly commanded to.)
I don’t want it to sound like men are “innocent” or “undamned” by just being unexposed to the gospel. You can be unexposed to the gospel and still have no faith.
I don’t think this idea is liberal, nor is it outside of Reformed doctrine; It would still be God who gives the unreached man faith in a God he can’t see, and a knowledge that he must repent. It would be God that stirred his conscience and gave him the fear that would cause him to intrust himself to a God that would forgive. The forgiveness would still come to him through the cross, the righteousness of Christ still given to him, because he believed. He’d be a modern Old Testament saint. God knows every heart and can judge rightly. Again, consider those commended in Hebrews 11–it’s bizarre to me that some of them are even named! Their faith is so minute, so random, so short-lived, even odd, that I would wonder if they were even believers if I knew them. But, God saw a faith there that he blessed with the righteousness of His son. Perhaps he still does. I’m thankful He’s the One who will judge and not I. However, I’ve been given much. I have the scriptures, the freedom to worship, to gather, to serve, to learn and teach. I must give account for this and operate faith according to all I’ve been shown.
Again, this isn’t something I’m sure of. It’s something I hope for and there’s enough scripture to suggest it’s possible. Let me know what you think, Tom. (or anyone.)
Xenos Christian Fellowship
Christian Ministry Unit 1
Introduction to Theology
Week 1 – Theology Proper
Is it Necessary to Hear the Gospel to be Saved?
By Gary DeLashmutt
The loss of a biblical consensus, coupled with increased awareness and interaction with other religions, has made the assertion that there is only one valid way to God offensive to most people in our culture. Evangelicals must be faithful to scripture by holding that salvation is possible only through Jesus Christ (Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12). But because Jesus is the sole Savior of humanity, does it follow that one must hear the message of salvation through Christ in order to be eligible for salvation? Evangelicals disagree in their answer to this question. Some assert that all unevangelized people are doomed to God’s condemnation. Others claim that unevangelized people can be saved on the basis of general revelation. Others say that unevangelized people can be saved through adherence to their own native religions. Still others remain agnostic about this question, saying that God has not revealed the fate of the unevangelized in scripture. The following is an argument that people can be saved without hearing the gospel, while providing important qualifications to this answer.
First, the Bible clearly teaches that God is just. Psalm 89:14 says, “Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you.” In Genesis 18:25, Abraham rightly asserts “Far be it from you to do such a thing–to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” There are many implications of justice, but one of them is that one is held responsible only for information, which he has received–not for information, which he has not received. Paul upholds this principle with regard to sin in Romans 4:15 when he says, ” … where there is no law there is no transgression.”
The Bible also teaches that God gives a significant amount of revelation about himself to the person “without the Bible.” Paul declares in Romans 1:18-20 that God has “made it evident” to such people not only that he exists, but also that he has certain attributes: namely, tremendous power and creative intelligence. These attributes have been revealed “through what has been made”–through the order of the external universe. Paul says in Rom. 2:14:15 that people without access to special revelation (“the Gentiles who do not have the Law”) also know that God is a morally righteous Being. They know this because of the moral conscience, which he has instilled in each person. These passages make two important points. First, the amount of light is considerable. God reveals to the unevangelized that he is powerful, personal (because he is intelligent and righteous). Man’s conscience also convicts him that he has violated God’s righteous character (Romans 2:15). Responding to this light properly would mean humbly coming before God asking for mercy. Thus, though the means of man’s forgiveness is not revealed through general revelation, the need for it is revealed. Second, the point of Paul’s argument in Romans 1,2 is that these people have been given enough light to be justly condemned. He says they are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20). But it would seem to follow (because of God’s justice) that this would also be enough light to be saved—if people respond to it properly.
Another biblical fact is relevant to this question. It is clear that many people before the coming of Jesus were saved. Hebrews 11 lists many Old Testament figures who fit this description. Old Testament Jews had access to special revelation, but they had no clear understanding of God’s plan of salvation, because the fact that the Messiah must die for our forgiveness was not clearly revealed (Luke 24:44-47; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Furthermore, some of the Old Testament people who were saved (like Melchizedek and Job) had little or no access to the special revelation coming through Abraham.
We conclude then that if the “person without the Bible” responds properly (as defined above) to the light God has given him, he will be saved by grace through faith. He will be saved only through the death of Christ, because “no man comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6). In this way, the unevangelized person today is much like the Jew before the time of Christ: he is justified before God by responding in faith to the light, which he has. With this conclusion, however, we alert the reader to two important qualifications.
QUALIFICATION #1: Does this conclusion mean any unevangelized person who is a devout follower of his culture’s religion will be saved? By no means. Most world religions are animistic, polytheistic, or pantheistic. But Romans 1 teaches that the truly open person will recognize that there is one God who is intelligent and personal, and that worshipping other god(s) is therefore an act of willful rebellion. Again, virtually all world religions teach a “works” approach to the deity–that the acceptance of the deity is attained by human effort through good works and/or ritual observance. But Romans 2:14,15 teaches that humans instinctively know that they are morally guilty before God and therefore have no claim on God’s acceptance. Therefore, those who are responding properly to God’s general revelation will be at odds with crucial elements in their native religious setting. Missionaries have reported many such people who responded quickly to their message of the one true God and his way of salvation.
QUALIFICATION #2: If people can be saved apart from hearing the gospel, will the same percentage of people in an unevangelized culture be saved if the culture is evangelized? This conclusion, if true, would render Christ’s commission to “make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19) pointless. This assertion is wrong because there is evidently a general correspondence between the amount of light given and the number of people who repent and are saved. Jesus teaches this principle clearly in Matthew 11:20-24. He says that Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have repented if they had received the light that Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida had received. This principle is also readily observed in history. While probably some Africans responded properly to the light of general revelation and were thus saved, clearly they were a small minority in unevangelized Africa judging by the paganism which pervaded Africa in the mid 1800′s. It is no coincidence that today, after 150 years of missionary activity, almost 50% of Black Africans are evangelical Christians. Therefore, the number of people who get saved through general revelation is probably very small, and this fact preserves the strategic importance of Jesus’ mission mandate.
Furthermore, those who get saved by responding to general revelation have less spiritual resources available to them than those who hear and respond to the gospel. They would be like the “disciples” that Paul met in Acts 19:1-6. These men were evidently saved, but did not receive the Holy Spirit until Paul explained the gospel to them. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as well as the other New Covenant ministries of the Holy Spirit, are evidently given only to those who have heard and responded to the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
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Time for a brief commercial break.
Mr. Crabby and I no longer watch commercial television and seldom view videos. Instead, we come to Todd’s Blog for uplifting programming. I have just delivered a large bowl of slightly burned popcorn and his favorite drink to Mr. Crabby to enjoy while he reads and ruminates on the excellent debate above.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
Wow…a lot has gone on since I last checked in! I was happily watching the book listing not thinking this conversation was still active.
First, MissMegg #46, I am working from old notes that I had in studying with an LDS elder or two. They may be outdated as I am talking about the 76-79 era. I know I have been wrong on many occassions, Mrs. Crabby could lovingly agree with that, so I ask as Todd did in #49, please correct me where I am wrong. The page numbers could be wrong now or I could have listed them incorrectly but I think the content is correct. I no longer have the original materials (although I did keep the 3,913 Changes in the Book of Mormon, a photo copy of the original 1830 Book of Mormon with changes marked as compared to the 1964 version).
There are things that I could have listed that I have heard that the LDS believe but I did not list them because I have not seen it for myself in their material.
I believe, MissMeg, that this forum shows our compassion for those in the LDS organization and many of us have had studies or long conversations with the Elders so, in a way, we are going to the source. If you have been offended by what I said then I, like Todd, truly grieve. Our desire is to “encourage one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near” not to disparage those who don’t agree with us.
Second, Matthew #53, I enjoyed your comments. We are in a ministry of saying and living the truth in love.
Third – TW #58 Wow! Thanks for sharing. Sometimes others can say much better what we can only think.
Fourth – Michele…good thoughts on “soteriology”. You have thought it out and are looking to the scriptures to guide you. Excellent. I have tended to lean in yours and TW’s direction but when I discuss it with someone outside the Faith I don’t go there other than to say “God is Just and Loving…both attributes at the same time…indivisible…and nothing like us. So if that is true then I can trust that the right thing will be done by God but you, my friend, have a decision to make because the Gospel has been given to you which makes you responsible for the opportunity.”
My hunch, having read your responses for the last few months, is that you already know that but there are other readers who may be stuck on the question with no answer so my answer is for their benefit.
Wow thanks Michele for pondering this subject it’s definitely something for us not to take lightly. I appreciate your thoughts and being open to wrestle with this in an open forum like this. There are a lot of good points and scripture you brought up in your post to much I think for us to try to deal with on this blog. However I think we can get at the basic questions that it sounds to me like your bringing up. Will God save apart from the preaching of his word and will we, or can we get enough faith just through what God has revealed in creation. Great questions to ponder its something I’ve thought about many times, So Ill try to give you a snap shot of my journey and why I believe the bibles answer to these questions are no.
As we see around the world by all the different religions people are exercising faith all the time seeking by faith what they believe creation (the world) is telling them about God. But Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed in and God revealed Himself to the saints of old and they believed Him and looked forward to His promise and now saints of new look back on the promised fulfilled and wait for our coming Lord. This is special revelation, he revealed Himself to us, we didn’t seek after Him and then he revealed Himself to us.
So the questions 1.CAN God save someone without the gospel being preached and 2. Can someone exercise faith in God by the revelation he’s given them by creation?
The 1st CAN:
If God was going to reveal Himself to a people group lets say through a dream or a vision or something. He would have to show them who he(holy) is then show them who they are(sinners) and by that revelation they would see their need for a savior then I suppose he would show them the savior then they would either believe or not. Will God do this, will he save apart from His word going out and can we or anyone know God apart from His word. Of course we all now God could do this if he intended too. But what did God do and what did he intend to do. I guess the question really is does God reveal Himself today through revelation other than what he’s already given us in the bible. I believe the answer is no as I said before the gospel is the means that God uses to bring us to Him (reference scripture in the last post). He’s chosen to use His word as the means for salvation. God HAS spoken in the past (special revelation) through His prophets 2Peter 1:21 and now has revealed Himself through His son(Heb 1)and has given us the scriptures His word. He’s always used a people as a means to communicate who he is to the world Noah, Abraham, Israel, Disciples etc and called us to preach the gospel to bring men to repentance.
The 2nd CAN:
Let me talk about the last sentence from my last post I wrote and maybe this will help with the question CAN anyone believe through general revelation.When I said we tend to believe God when he tells us about who he is. The key word in that sentence is tend. I know through my Christian walk I tend NOT to believe God when He tells me who he really is. The reason I bring this up is because I used to struggle with this issue a lot and it used to put doubts in my head about God. I would say what about all those people who have never heard the gospel. I would naturally come to two conclusions one either Christ isn’t the only way to salvation and there’s other paths to God which as the “good Christian I was” I would reject, or that God wasn’t that fair and good and that’s what I would end up thinking, I doubted Gods goodness. Of course I would fight it but it always lingered there.
Why? Where do I believe my fault lied because clearly none off those answers were right? Well this is where the second sentence comes in. I didn’t tend to believe Him when he told me how bad we are. I used to say well sure I was a sinner there’s nothing I could do to earn, work, or buy my way into heaven and one day I heard the gospel, realized I was a sinner made my profession of faith, hey I’m saved I couldn’t have been too bad right. “I” made the choice for God how depraved could I really be right. But I didn’t fully realize the true state of my situation and who I was before “GOD” saved me.
What’s this have to do with people who haven’t heard the gospel and whether they will believe on Him apart from it? Well Deep down in me even though I new there’s nothing I or anyone could do to be saved I thought it wouldn’t be fair if these people didn’t have a chance to hear the gospel. So God has to get the message to them some how or some other way. I had a chance to hear the gospel and believe, so it just wouldn’t be fair if they didn’t have a chance.
In case you missed it in that last sentence I basically said God wouldn’t be fair if he didn’t get the gospel out to them. Let’s set aside the fact that if God was fair with anyone he would snuff them out after their first breath. But will have to save fairness doctrine for another conversation. Let’s focus on me telling God he has to get the gospel out to these other people. In this statement I’m assuming a few things. 1. that there’s something in these people that would accept the gospel had it been preached and its only fair that they have a chance to accept it.2 that they don’t deserve hell, or that possibly they’d get there and say to God well if you would have only preached the gospel to us we would have believed. So once I started believing the bible about what it said about man I realized that we hate God we love darkness rather than light we exchange the creature for the creator we will not believe on the creator if left to ourselves and through general revelation we will not choose God we will choose self every time. The best that anyone can come up with through general revelation is that there is a god or gods and that their not him or her. Apart from special revelation we’ll be lost and justly die in our sins
This brings me to another sentence I wrote last blog that “Before creation he elected to save a people to Himself through Christ. So he knows who will hear His voice and our Sovereign Lord will get the gospel to them.” So their wont be anyone on a remote island that God says man I just couldn’t get the gospel to you I’m sorry your going to have to go to hell. No if needed he’ll produce another fish to swallow an evangelist to preach to them.
God Bless
Crabbies–I love to picture you guys being cozy reading the blog. Cozy Crabbies. Great addition to our discussion.
TW–Wow, thank you for the study. Quite insightful. Xenos Christian Fellowship is certainly intriguing. How did you find it?
Tom, thanks for responding.
Honestly, the reason I think this might be possible is not because I think it would be unfair for God to damn those who’ve never heard the Gospel, but simply because it seems like the scriptures indicate there’s a possibility that He doesn’t. God is God and He can do whatever He pleases. I understand that it’s a lapse in MY reasoning if I think He’s unfair.
You say that God has always used people as the means to communicate to us who he is, but has He? Consider when He came to Job in the storm; He spends chapter after chapter, describing nature to Job, not answering his theological questions with descriptions of his character, but pretty much saying, “You’ve seen my power, goodness, faithfulness through what I’ve made, you should trust me.” I mean, Job was wrestling with questions of evil and destiny and God says, “Look at the weather, look at the ostrich.” Somehow, he expected him to learn things about His character through what was created. Romans 1:20 says, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
I don’t think this diminishes man’s depravity. The man who exercises faith in the small revelation he’s given isn’t saved by works, but by God crediting him righteousness through His son.
In John 1, speaking of Jesus, it says, “The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.”
Romans tell us that we “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” It seems to be talking about the entire world, not just the Jews who have an understanding that there’s a Creator, that they are responsible to him, and that He’s not happy with their sin.
If we like sheep, go astray, each of us to our own way, it doesn’t make us seem like we bring anything to the table, does it?
I don’t think I need to drag out experiences and stories to defend this idea, but I read recently that when Helen Keller learned to talk and understand, and was told about God, she said, “I knew that.”
And this, by Eugene Ionesco:
“In the history of humanity, there are no civilizations or cultures which fail to manifest in one or a thousand ways, this need for an absolute that is called “heaven”, freedom, an absolute, a miracle, a lost paradise to be regained, peace, the going beyond history… There is no religion in which everyday life is not considered a prison; there is no philosophy or ideology that does not think we live in alienation…. Humanity has always had a nostalgia for the freedom that is only beauty, that is only real life, plenitude, light.”
Tom, do you think, somehow, this understanding makes us worthy of salvation? No, it makes us know we’re lost and broken. And, like Romans says, a man can “suppress the truth” or believe it; There may be more truth available to some, little to others.
This is great, Brother, and good for me. Thanks for your patient and well-thought-out answers.
OK, I’m assuming we should all go to bed so we can actually be in church tomorrow. Love you all.
Michele your right I need to go to bed too a will after a quick response.
I think from your last post I figured out one of the areas were seeing differently.
You said
“I don’t think this diminishes man’s depravity. The man who exercises faith in the small revelation he’s given isn’t saved by works, but by God crediting him righteousness through His son.”
I’m assuming you mean general revelation (creation) when you say small revelation.So my disagreement would be that man will never exercise faith towards God without special revelation (the gospel)and the enabling of the Holy Spirit.Rom 1:18-32 All will supress the truth of general revelation (creation,the law in our hearts) in unrighteousness. They will never turn to the true and living God their creator apart from the Holy Spirits enabling and the gospel preached.
Will pick it up tomorrow hope to see you at church.
God Bless
O.K. before I hed off to church a quote on the faith of old testament saints.
“Those who point to Old Testament believers as evidence that conscious faith in Jesus is not necessary
for salvation are mistaken both about the nature of Old Testament belief and about the progressive
nature of redemptive history. The New Testament contends that old covenant believers trusted in the
coming messianic redemption on the basis of the revelation given to them by God (Heb. 11:26, for
example). Even more significantly, the New Testament asserts that a cosmic shift has occurred in the
flow of history with the coming of Christ. The “end of the ages” has come upon us. [6] With the
advent of the One who has “exegeted” the very nature of God (John 1:18), God now commands all
people everywhere (pagan Athenian philosophers as well as the man on the island) to repent and believe, not just in some generic conception of God, but in the name of the One whom He has raised
from the dead and through whom He will judge the cosmos (Acts 17:30-31). This is precisely
because of the Christocentric nature of redemption itself. Jesus is not simply a means to some greater
end. Instead, the entire purposes of God are so that Jesus may be exalted as “the firstborn among
many brothers” (Rom 8:29, ESV). The mystery of God hidden for ages past, which has now come to
light in the gospel, is that the Father purposes to “sum up all things in Christ” (Eph 1:10 NASB).
Thus, the confession of Jesus as Lord is not simply a means of the gospel—it is the eschatological
goal of the gospel (Phil 2:9-11). Therefore, the early Christians did not hesitate to disturb their
Jewish neighbors from their synagogue worship and to confront God-fearing Gentiles with the
scandalous particularity of the accomplished work of Christ Jesus.
But what if, one may ask, the man on the island acknowledges the Creator God revealed in general
revelation, and is convicted by the Spirit of sin—a sin uncovered by the law written on his heart.
What then if this man throws himself on the mercy of God for forgiveness? Some otherwise very
conservative evangelical theologians have left open this as a possibility, though they caution that we
do not know how often, if ever, this happens. [7] This question, however, is misleading. It is
something akin to asking what if an individual never sins and perfectly obeys God, would he still
need salvation through Christ. Such a situation simply does not exist. The heart must believe, Paul
writes to the Romans, in the historical fact of the resurrection while the mouth must confess the
sovereignty of this particular individual, Jesus of Nazareth (Rom. 10:9-10). The apostle anticipates
the question of the man on the island and answers it decisively: “How will they call on Him in whom
they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will
they hear without a preacher?” (Rom. 10:14) God calls sinners to Himself by His Spirit through the
preaching of the gospel of Christ. This passage ends with the boldest of mission thrusts. Since faith
“comes from hearing” (Rom. 10:17) and since there are those who do not hear, God graciously sends
messengers of His glorious gospel.
Tom – thank you for the post. Who did you quote?
This has been a great exercise in looking at the “totality” of scripture and its individual points. In reading yours and Michele’s posts I think it ultimately comes down to trusting the fairness and love of God. Since He elects, He will save. Since we are His and love Him, we will go and preach. I have to clarify that neither of you have denied those points. For me, though, trusting in His fairness and love is my “take-away”.
Hi Mr. Crabby nice to see that your up after that sucker punch you took.
I’m sorry I should have posted who it was by I was trying to get out the door for church. The article was written by Russell D. Moore who is an assistant professor of Christian theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The article is entitled “The Man on the Island: Facing the Truth
About those who Never Hear the Gospel” Its a quick 5 page read that of course represents what I was trying to say a lot better than I was. Ill try to add the link below
http://www.russellmoore.com/documents/russellmoore/ The_Man_on_the_Island.pdf
God Bless
Good morning, Tom. Wow, excellent stuff. I felt like music should be playing when I read the words on the Gospel and Christ being the end, the dawn, the “scandalous particularity” that caused the Jews to invade synagogues. I’m not saying that flippantly. That was beautiful. And to the last section of Romans 10–what can I say? If I were to read that alone, I’d be convinced that it’s settled, every man who doesn’t hear the gospel is damned.
But, I still have the Old Testament to contend with; Wasn’t the covenant made with the Jews, which gave men access to God through the blood of the Lambs particular? Didn’t he command the Hebrews to be set apart, a “light for the nations”? Yet, you see people scattered through out those pages with faith in God–and outside of the covenant. (Ninevah, Nebhecannezar, the pre-Mosaic believers) I can’t just dismiss God’s tender and patient dealings with them, although their faith didn’t seem “complete”.
And, I know this sounds “touch-feely”, but I can’t help but say it: My sense of kindness indicates that God would be generous. I know He has every right to destroy us all, that every breath we breathe is only because he’s given it, that each of us deserves hell. But, I remember that I am evil, and if my fallen sense of kindness desires for these people to be judged according to what they’ve been given, I have to assume I might lean that way because I’m made in His image. My sense of justice, though skewed and fallen wants to offer a way of escape even to those least deserving. Wouldn’t a sinless God, who’s kindness and mercy is unfathomable do so as well? I’m not trying to appeal to heart-strings in this argument, but this desire has to come from somewhere.
Tom, I think we may just have to agree to disagree. This feels weird because you and I are always high-fiving each other doctrinally and see the same on any controversy that has come up on this blog. Tim and I have only known you a year and we think very highly of you. Because of this, I’m rather uneasy with my view, to be honest. I know you are beyond me, way beyond me in your studies and faith. I’ll say it again, this is something I’m not sure about, but can see both sides on and remain open. There are a few doctrines I’m soft on–I won’t go in to them here because it would probably just create more controversy, plus I love to be loved. None of them are essential, though. This one may seem essential, it’s truly important, for sure, but I just don’t think it’s completely clear-cut. Thanks for your patience with me in talking about this. I just love ya, Guy.
Thanks, too, Mr. Crabby. You’re always able to say in a few words a ton of great stuff. Wish I had that gift.
Michele
I say again that I very much appreciate your openness and kindness in discussing this issue with me. It’s an extremely humbling subject that where discussing the character and purposes of our Lord definitely something not to take lightly and I know you don’t. I also appreciate your wisdom in the scriptures and your heart for God. You and your husband, well whole family have been a great blessing to the body at crossroads since you’ve arrived.
On this issue however we might not be giving high fives as has been are usual custom when talking about doctrine. But I know one day we will be giving high fives again, even on this issue if not here then in heaven.
My last thoughts and we’ll put this to bed before Todd pulls the plug. Also Id likes to thank you Todd for allowing us to take over your apology blog.
I think it comes down to what God purposed to do before the foundation of the world. We all know and would agree that He elected a people to save, the question is how does that work its self out through time and in the world. Without diving any deeper into this issue I would just say that God will reveal Himself to those that are the elect and to those that he doesn’t reveal Himself are passed over and left to die justly in their sins.
A lot off people would think that this makes God a monster and that if we have compassion for these people and want to see them get saved and were sinful people than surly God must. I’m amazed that we can turn things around like that and make us more compassionate than God. We so quickly forget that we mankind were made to glorify God that’s what WHERE made for yet all of us have gone astray and none give Him His do glory. Yet despite that constant rebellion and constant sticking of our noses up at Him the fact that he still chooses to save anyone and at such a great cost of His son is indeed AMAZING GRACE.
Ill leave it at that look forward to discussing this issue further with you sometime over a meal. God Bless you.
Michelle & Tom… received this today,ummmmm might help
Blessings..
Week of October 5
When Does God Become 100 Percent for Us?
John Piper
I have asked the question in public, “When does God become 100% for us?” And I have given an answer that rightly troubles thoughtful, biblical people. So this article is an effort to answer their question.
In my message to the Desiring God National Conference on Sunday, September 30, I answered the question like this:
What the Bible teaches is that God becomes 100% irrevocably for us at the moment of justification, that is, the moment when we see Christ as a beautiful Savior and receive him as our substitute punishment and our substitute perfection. All of God’s wrath, all of the condemnation we deserve, was poured out on Jesus. All of God’s demands for perfect righteousness were fulfilled by Christ. The moment we see (by grace!) this Treasure and receive him in this way his death counts as our death and his condemnation as our condemnation and his righteousness as our righteousness, and God becomes 100% irrevocably for us forever in that instant.
The question this leaves unanswered is, “Doesn’t the Bible teach that in eternity God set his favor on us in election?” In other words, thoughtful people ask, “Did God only become 100% for us in the moment of faith and union with Christ and justification? Did he not become 100% for us in the act of election before the foundation of the world?” For example, Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, “[God] chose us in [God] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.”
Is God then not 100% for the elect from eternity? The answer hangs on the meaning of “100%.” With the term “100%” I am trying to preserve a biblical truth found in several passages of Scripture. For example, in Ephesians 2:3, Paul says that Christians were “children of wrath” before they were made alive in Christ Jesus. “We all once lived [among the sons of disobedience] in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
So Paul is saying that, before regeneration, God’s wrath was on us. The elect were under wrath. This changed when God made us alive in Christ Jesus and awakened us to see the truth and beauty of Christ so that we received him as the one who died for us and as the one whose righteousness is counted as ours because of our union with Jesus. Before this happened to us, we were under God’s wrath. Then, because of faith in Christ and union with him, all God’s wrath was removed and he then became, in that sense, 100% for us.
Similarly in Romans 8:1, there is the crucial word “now.” “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” The implication of “now” is that there was once condemnation over us and now there is not. A real change in God’s disposition toward us happened in the moment of our regeneration and faith and union with Christ and justification.
Notice the phrase “in Christ” at the end of Romans 8:1. This is why God’s disposition toward us is different when we believe in Christ. When we believe in Christ, we are united to him–that is, we are “in Christ.” This means that his death counts as our death and his righteousness counts as our righteousness. This is why there is now no condemnation, whereas before there was. Before Christ bore the curse of the law and we were united to him by faith, we were under the curse of the law. “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13).
When Paul uses the language of God being “for us,” he speaks of it in the context of what Christ has done for us in history. For example, in Romans 8:31-32, he says, “If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” Not sparing his Son is the act that secures God’s being 100% for us forever.
So was God 100% for us from eternity because we were elect? In one sense, yes. It was 100% certain that he would bring us to faith and save us. But when I ask the question, “When did God become 100% for us?” I mean more than: “When did it become 100% certain that God would save us?” I mean: “When did it happen that God was for us and only for us? That is, when did it happen that the only disposition of God toward us was mercy? Or: When did God become for us so fully that there was not any wrath or curse or condemnation on us, but only mercy?
The answer, I still say, is at the point when, by grace, we saw Christ as a supremely valuable Savior and received him as our substitute sacrifice and substitute righteousness. In other words, it happened at the point of justification. The implication of this is that all our works, all our perseverance, all our continuing faith and obedience does not cause God to be 100% for us, but is the result of his being 100% for us.
Paul’s logic in Romans 8:32 is that because God gave his Son to die for us therefore he will give us all things with him. That is, God will see to it that we persevere to the end not only because we are elect, but because Christ died for us and we are in Christ. That is the logic of 1 Corinthians 1:8-9: “[God] will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” The call is mentioned as the ground of God’s faithfulness to sustain us to the end.
Therefore, exult in the truth that God will keep you. He will get you to the end because in Christ he is 100% for you. And therefore, getting to the end does not make God to be 100% for you. It is the effect of the fact that he is already 100% for you.
Glorying in the gospel with you,
Pastor John
Amen TW thanks for sharing always great stuff from Piper.
Yes, TW, that was great. Thank you.
Tom, today I was out for my morning walk, listening to this pastor James MacDonald, warning his congregation about the false-doctrine in the novel, “The Shack”. He quoted a line from it where the character Mack is talking to Jesus. And Jesus says, “I’m not the only Way, but I’m the best way.” What I’ve been discussing here could be misconstrued to sound like this. And I got this chill down my spine. It freaked me out to think if I’d stumbled anyone like Oprah or something.
Anyway, I hope it’s clear that I believe Jesus is the only way to be forgiven and saved. That if God imputes righteousness to someone, it’s the righteousness of His son. If He forgives someone, it’s because of His son’s work.
I can see where the idea that someone can be saved by faith in general revelation, (believing God exists, blesses those who seek Him, etc.) can get sideways fast. You could carry this thinking out to saying people in false-religions can be saved because they have faith in God, are responding to the light given them, etc. When the Bible teaches clearly that worshiping false gods is to be damned.
Truly, this is why it’s good that God alone judges in the end. It’s so complex. We need to preach the gospel, practice discernment, refute lies and put our hope in Christ.
Sorry to spark this again, Pastor Todd, but I just needed to say that.
Michele
I never thought that of you for a moment. You were just wrestling with weather someone can get saved in Jesus apart from the preaching of the gospel. However I think its good you clarified your position for the benefit of others who might be reading and misunderstood you.
Blogging is tough trying to get across what your trying to say without being misunderstood. Half the things I wrote I new you new, or you assumed I already thought but had to write it for the sake of others following.
High-five
Have a blessed day
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would never want to feel that I limited in my little mind how God would,or could, save someone…however, in this space and time in which we live, the written Word was handed to us to communicate to the lost while we are on this planet. That’s our mission…God can do whatever He wants beyond that. The written Word is our guide book, not God’s.He’s the author, what guidance or rules does an all-powerful and perfect God need?
Michele- Yeah you always did remind me of Oprah. *grin*
And I guess that would make Tom Geraldo!
Thanks for this discussion guys… It really made me think again about the pygmy question that we have all wrestled with.
Love you both very much and thanks again.
Mike, you’re funny.
Matthew #53
this is a way late response but your post was beneficial to me.
I was just thinking about what a rare gift it must be to convert someone from one faith to another…it must take a lot of love, humility and patience.
Todd, I found nothing offensive in what you said about the Missionaries. I have been interested in the religion for many years. A church I once belonged to had classes on different religious groups. I also have family and friends in the church. Two family members committed suicide that belonged to the Mormon church because of the church. I think there is a severe misunderstanding of what they teach. One being that Jesus is the Mormon God of earth and that men in the church can become “god” of their own planet. The god they believe in is not the God of the Bible, making them in my mind a cult. They are also in the large Bible of the new version we are reading from, considered a cult. Having said that, I love and pray for those family members and friends who are morman. I could go on with more stories and details. I think perhaps those that where unhappy with what you said, misunderstand the Morman religion and that actually you were very kind. I actually have morman friends who make fun of themselves and would have also found the story funny. Debbie
My now sister in law was put into an arranged Morman marriage and every aspect of her life was controlled. She divorced at the loss of her children and excommunicated from the church. She attended two of their weddings from the parking lot, not allowed in the church. Her sons arrainged marriage led him to suicide two years ago.
My niece has five children told to have five children by the Mormon church, her husband tired of the children spends every other week living with another woman and their child to get away from her, okay with the church.
Mormons lives are so tied to the church, they often loose everything when leaving. A young girl I spoke with on the interenet in College knew something was wrong and went to a Christian church, left the morman church, lost her scholarship and college.
A cousin killed herself after too many children she could not handle.
A friend as an adult was not allowed to pray in her Morman family because she was a girl. It took years for her to pray without fear.
My sister in law is now a Christian and because of her back ground has a lot of fear. She and my brother were seperated for over 20 years when she was told by her father he died in Viet Nam. She saw his name and address in a reunion book and he was not dead.
My niece Jesalyn met an amazing young man she wanted to marry. Her mother told her not to marry him, he was a Christian, that she would rather she died from being eaten away with cancer than marry someone not Morman. They seperated.
Morman is not just another name for “Christians” in any way shape or form.
The Bible says we will know them by the clothes they wear.
Debbie