Depression: Discussion
June 17th, 2009 by Todd JohnsonWelcome to the discussion we’re continuing from the Wednesday night Q&A. Feel free to ask further questions or share your thoughts and experiences.
Please keep it civil & seek edification rather than confrontation. There are many views and perspectives, even among the experts. Our goal over the course of this month has been to open the discussion.. seek God together.. study the Scriptures, study the saints of old, learn all that we can & God-willing help a few.
I’m thankful for the participation of pastor Ed Lech, Dr. Kevin Maxwell & Todd Arvidson. I would love for our panelists to enter the discussion here as time for them allows for it.
Ps 42:11ESV
Why are you cast down, O my soul,
and why are you in turmoil within me?
Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
my salvation and my God.
Would this be an accurate summary of what was said about medication?
“Medication is not a bad thing, and can be very helpful in certain circumstances. You have to be careful though because it can mask the real issue and keep you from seeing what God is trying to teach you. It should be looked at as a tool to jump start healing – like a splint on a broken leg – rather than the solution to whatever you’re dealing with”.
Apologize if I butchered that. Just trying to get straight in my head what I heard last night.
I asked one of our “experts” about this last night, but wanted to post it because I know it can’t only be me . . .
I would fit into the description, for the most part, of one of the women discussed. I have a great life, healthy family, etc. and suffer from depression, but I KNOW why. Every time I read the news lately or turn on the tv I learn of fathers killing their familes, mothers killing their children, children being molested and/or murdered – I cry over these and feel such grief in my heart. Maybe, because I have a young son and young grandchildren who I adore, I relate too closely to these stories, but they weigh so heavily on me. How does one find “joy” in these surroundings?
Chris, good summary! Medication is a tool, and it also can be more than a tool-it can be a life long support to battle mental illness. Not everyone who gets depressed will need medication. In fact, 80% of depression will clear up with exercise, meditation, healthier nutrition, connecting with others, and working through what’s going on inside or making different choices about relationships, habits, addiction(which always includes some form of depression/despair) and the like. The other 20%–which does not include Bi-Polar, will require intervention. I’ve had people come to me for help after having been on medication for a while(2 years) who only wanted symptom relief from mediation and did not work on their “heart condition.” The heart always wins.
Chris- I’m not one of the experts (in anything, now that I think about it), but I think your summary in post #1 sums up quite nicely a doctrinally sound outlook on depression medication. Obviously the whole issue can be dissected ad nauseam, but my simple mind can get around your summation. I would only offer this as the bookends to what you’ve already put… “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests be made known to God”- I think there are situations where meds may help, some where they may not, and some where it’s really a matter of personal conviction (a “what’s OK for you may not be OK for me, but still may be for you” type of thing)- but prayer must precede and conclude the discussion whether or not they ought to be used.
I guess the question should be whether or not a Christian can use depression medication without becoming “overly dependent” upon them. If they become one’s “salvation”, well that’s no good. If they assist in keeping one’s sanity, well that’s a good thing. We all know that the drugs can be abused, the question seems to be whether a God fearing, Jesus loving, Born Again Christian can use depression medication in certain circumstances while continuing to practically keep Jesus as King and Lord of their life. I think the panel would’ve answered “yeah” to that.
OK Todd (original), you can have your blog back now.
On the topic of meds I’d like to ask our panel. Is there a difference between taking these prescribed medications to help with depression or someone using alcohol or marijuana (in moderation of course and in countries where it’s legal) to help with depression. I ask because I’ve talked to people who are worried about the chemical side of things with prescribed meds and would rather go the natural way. Is there a difference?
I’m not even close to being an expert, either, but I can speak from experience. Before I came to know and love our Lord, I was what they used to term a “manic-depressive,” now called Bi-Polar II. Like Todd, it ran heavily in my family. I used to get in “black-moods” for days, if not weeks. For instance, if the 49ers lost, the whole week was shot (seriously…and the way the 49ers were in the 70’s, I was depressed a lot). I never was prescribed medication for my depression. But through the grace of God my long depressions went away as soon as I accepted the Lord. I still get depressed on occasion, but for no more than an hour or two. What I experience now is an anger and a deep sadness over the fallen state of this world, which would descend into depression if I did not accept the fact that the Lord is in complete control, and His just, merciful and holy ways will keep this world together until the appointed time. In my case, it was clear that the root of my depression was not biological, not physical nor emotional, but an incomplete knowledge of the Lord. Depression is a tool of the enemy to keep me, God’s child,from experiencing the joy and peace of my Lord.
“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose.” – Romans 8:28
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” – 1 Peter 5:8
My first thoughts last night were that we have a very perceptive congregation that wants truth and to do things right. Second, I praise the Lord for Todd’s humility and modeling godly leadership of letting his weakness magnify God’s goodness and power in a submitted life. Thirdly, the attendance reflects that Todd was listening to the Holy Spirit’s prompting to open this tough can of worms.
To lmd: If I were Jesus and came upon Mary weeping over her brother Lazerus dying, I’d not have weeped with her but might have gloried in the resurrection about to take place and hurrried to that to take away the pain. He took the time to weep with her, give her the most important understanding and then brought him back.
He also weeped over Jerusalem, knowing the state of affairs of EVERY broken heart, wishing He could gather them to Himself, but knowing he had to pave the way first and then call and see only a percentage come.
You, lmd, are seeing things like Jesus. Blessed are you who mourn, you will be comforted. Your spiritual gifting is either in the mercy department (weeping with those who weep) or in the prophetic department (understanding God’s Word well enough to know the groaning of creation to this day, causing your Lamentation.) Either is good, as long as the Lord helps you to respond in ways He enables you to respond.
Not every emotion is bad. The anger of man does not acheive God’s righteousness, unless I see a 18 year old beating up a 7 year old and my anger moves me out of my chair to intervene. A lot of our society’s anxiety is knowing that things can come crashing down and just sitting in front of the tube absorbing it is not a healthy response. But if we can focus on today (Matt 6:34) and what the Lord has laid before us individually, we can let Him handle the bigger picture as obedient Christians respond in the world.
In the past, perceived danger was followed by a way to burn off the anxiety with a run from the lion that is chasing. In this world, we sit at the computer or TV and don’t burn off the adrenaline.
Anyway, God bless you for seeing things that many don’t. Now comes the faith part to trust that He loves and is powerful and is working in us little guys, sometimes just to touch one at a time.
Oops, I think I just passed the limit and am a blog hog.
To T Chavez:
“I guess the question should be whether or not a Christian can use depression medication without becoming “overly dependent” upon them.” I say absolutely yes, see it all the time. The concern about the pill becoming salvation is a question of idolatry, the the same way one could say that Todd is the only one who has opened their eyes in his teaching the Word, when the truth is that Todd is an instrument in God’s hand and God opened their eyes. Not to equate Todd and a pill—
Did God invent Prosac? –not sure. Did God give us glasses to see when our vision goes bad?–same answer.
Regarding becoming overdependent on medication, I think Chris did a nice summary on the pitfalls of returning to the blinders on ourselves when the pain is gone.
To qwe:
I grew up thinking alcohol and morphine were the devil’s tools.
If you want a laugh, see what ministry my son is involved with in his church at http://www.rivchurch.com/ministries/riverbrew/
Proverbs 31:4-6 and I Timothy 5:23 are my model about using medication for physical comfort for “the dying and bitterly distressed” and those with stomach ailments. Medicine has generalized that a whole lot.
Over the years, I have seen too many people in misery on a constant basis to withhold morphine and my mind has changed on that. Of course there is abuse on both ends–the doctor writes the RX and bingo–instant caring–bye! The patient who is no longer covering physical pain but just wanting to “check out.”
To me the use of antidepressants coupled with godly counsel and the Word in someone who is actively trying to grow in godliness, gives me hope that perhaps the meds will drop off. If they were immobile from depression, then the medication may allow them to open their Bible for the first time. It doesn’t make people happy (unless they’re bipolar and go manic).
I have a patient (Bible believing)who had the dark clouds their whole life and on a small amount said, I now know what it feels like to be normal. They were not getting high, they got relief.
Regarding Marajuana, for nausea in cancer– yes. Very limited usefulness, too many deceptions and too much demotivation—whatever, man. There is Marinol for the rare need to use pot in this country.
On the subject of medication in ALL aspects of medicine. We were taught in training to always say “this pill will make you feel—[fill in the blank].” The placebo effect is 40% and they were trying to get us to evoke that. To me that is socery (pharmachea-sic), attributing to the pill something that is in the domain of God, thus stealing God’s glory for oneself. Since we can see strep die in the petrie dish with penicillin, that makes sense and we can actually break down biochemically how the penicillin chops up the bacterial cell wall. That isn’t sorcery anymore than using the physical laws of matter to send an astronaut to the moon. However, I can understand the risk of we doctors wanting to throw medication, alter the mood and take the credit.
When I don’t know what’s going on, I think God wants truth and there can be a place for empirical trials. (ie “I think your chest pain may just be indigestion, why don’t you try a Pepcid and see if it goes away.)
The research on antidepressants has some decent science, but there is not a blood test. Most of it is discerned. The serotonin model given has usefulness, but connecting the medication to the right person is more an art (discernment) than a science. Some psychiatrists would disagree with that because they understand it better, so I think I’ll leave it there.
What he said.
Clarification: The funny thing about looking at my son’s website is the irony of my upbringing and how far different my own family diverges now from that. I totally support the goals he shares in responsible drinking.
Proverbs 10:19
Thanks for your answer Dr. Maxwell ( and I guess Todd) My question was for them to use it in moderation(responsibly) not to get high. With the marijuana I know someone who used it just one hit when they were feeling overwhelmed and it really helped them and made them be able to cope. I’ve seen this in others with alcohol to take the edge of. I used to smoke and at times of stress that could take the edge off too Obviously I’m not talking about the clinically depressed just the person who gets overwhelmed with life and might be going through a season. From your answer I gathered that alcohol would be ok (responsibly) but marijuana no? Is it just because it’s illegal or for other reasons? It seems from what I’ve read it would probly be safer (responsibly)than some of the meds I’ve read about? I would appreciate your insight.
P.S. I know that the church condems marijuana but much of it used to condem alcohol the same way. I know that it’s illegal here but what about a missionary in Amsterdam ?
To qwe:
To answer medically, there are many chemical ways of calming people down including legal and illegal means–some safer than others. We do it all the time in extenuating circumstances like the 80 year old in the hospital who is totally disoriented at night, hallucinating when usually you’d never see that at home. Another would be the sleepless widow, exhausted, yet not sleeping. Would marajuana help her? Probably not as much as many others, but it would probably take the edge off (unless arrested). We do it all the time for compassionate reasons, BUT there is a huge area of drug use that needs to be addressed. We alluded to it the other night when addressing the whole “is prosac okay for Christians” issue. I think we covered the circumstances where it is totally reasonable, and sometimes is questionable–like when the real answer is dealing with guilt.
We are made of physical, emotional, mental and spiritual components and they interact and influence each other. The healthier my spiritual life, the less likely I will be dragged into physically stupid things. Conversely, if I rest my body, I won’t be so grumpy.
So, actually my concern about a missionary in Amsterdam taking a hit off a joint that’s legal is why he is doing it. You said its to calm down. Compassion says he needs something, but the truth is he may be forming a habit of running to the shortcut and not building a pattern of yielding to the Holy Spirit. Remember, I am not against helping, but I am against quenching the Spirit. Ephesians 5:15.
My hypothesis in helping the person who is 45 and wanting to quit smoking (stay with me) is to ask when he started. Usually in the teens. Teenagers are learning to cope with adult issues and stressors like getting dumped, not studying for the test, picking the “wrong” college, pleasing which person or group… There are kids who learn to jog off the frustration, or scream in a pillow or cry themselves to sleep, or pray or talk to a friend. Others learn that alcohol takes the edge off, tobacco after a while does as well. Pot definitely mellows one out. So which path to peace will the teen choose. When chemicals are used, they short circuit the painful process of learning to cope effectively by facing things more directly. So then the 45 year old who habitually when disturbed lights up has successfully learn a way to cope—but now realizes it has trapped him and he can’t breath.
After the physical addiction is gone, he still needs to go back and learn the stress relievers that help him find peace without the damage. Otherwise, when his car gets run off the road his brain screams at him “light up and in 20 seconds you will be less tense”–and its true–and he’s a slave to the old pathway.
When a young person suffers rejection and finds solace in the Lord, he is storing in his personal library a memory that he can draw on (like Psalm 106 and 107 where Israel rehearses God’s deliverance), but its his own story of a faithful personal God. Those people in the congregation who questioned the use of medications have a very good point on the risk of shielding someone from experiencing God’s tender mercies and allowing them to develop their own “God Is Faithful” library like David did.
I realize that some could be confused and say that I am speaking out of both sides of my mouth. Yes its fine with antidepressants, but no let them suffer so they can see God’s deliverance.
A high school kid who has memorized Psalm 23 and is trusting that it is truth that:
1. because the Lord is my Shepherd I have everything that I need
2. I lie in green pastures (He provides)
3. He leads me beside still waters (peace)
4. He restores my [broken] soul
5. I am not fearful in the worst (He’s with me)
6. I am honored while my enemies watch (they will learn to trust Him too)
7. Life is overflowing (and not just with serotonin levels)
That high schooler will hopefully translate this personally and testify of this truth.
The youth that says, “I am stressed, let me relax with a joint” is short circuiting the writing of God’s faithfulness. Is that true of the youth on prozac? it can be, but like we said the other night, the meds are the splint, the person has to heal and develop healthy thinking (renew the mind) in Christ.
Generally it seems that addiction is a tension reliever in the short run and a life consumer in the long run. We are instructed not to be mastered by anything other than the Lord. I Corinth 6:10.
Sorry for the length of the answer, but the question seems to be looking for what’s okay, rather than what’s best. Don’t you agree that learning to cope as a youth without chemicals is far superior? For those who haven’t heard of His power, what else would one expect, seems expedient. But for those who have Christ, why be filled with any other spirit when the issue is spiritual (“I’m lazy and didn’t study.”" I was rude and my girlfriend dumped me” are spiritual issues.) When it’s physical, bodily assistance makes sense to me.
Thanks again for your answer. I’m not looking for what’s ok I’m really wanting to know what’s the difference. It seems like the person who goes to the Dr. and says I’m feeling depressed and they come to the conclusion to put them on meds it’s looked at as ok. actually I’ve heard many in the church advocate for the use of meds when anyone’s feeling depressed (I know you don’t agree with that) but if that person was to be prescribed a hit of pot or a couple of drinks these same people would look down on them. So that’s why I m asking you what’s the difference, because one is prescribed and the other is not? If it has the same effect of helping them cope and starting them on the road to recovery why not use it.
In the situation that I used it was an adult with kids God fearing, they’ve tried for years to deal with the situation through prayer and other means but in the end this is what they ended up trying and it worked for them. They know if they would have gone to a counselor he’d probly suggest meds and they would rather go natural instead of chemical. If anyone in the church was to know about it they would be looked down upon yet if they were on meds they would not. So my question to you was to say if the only difference is ones legal and ones not then why is it so looked down upon? If our country was to legalize it would it then be ok to use? That’s why I brought up the Amsterdam example.
I’m not an advocate or trying to advocate for pot I’m just asking what the difference is. Both meds and pot have an altering affect to the brain so I was asking the question of the panel (which you graciously took up) why one is accepted over the other is it legality, preference, social stigma. It’s not because meds are safe and controlled and pots not, because they can be just as addictive and more damaging than pot. By your post it sounds like you already now this.
As for your question to me “Don’t you agree that learning to cope as a youth without chemicals is far superior?” I agree it is far superior for youth and adults I would add to cope without any chemicals. Your hypothesis paragraph was great a lot of wisdom
I’m not able to make it to church on Wednesday nights, but I’ve been listening online. Is last Wednesday’s panel discussion going to be put on the website for us listening from home?
Also, Greg Leis~ I too was diagnosed manic depressive in high school-my dad being manic and paranoia schizophrenic. God has absolutely healed me and taught me how to think. My dad on the other hand, is dependent on medication and lapses very often. I’m honestly still not sold on meds at all.
I’d love to hear the panel and I’ve been intrigued by all the posts. I guess I can concede to meds as a jump start… maybe in extreme cases. I do find it hard knowing what to say to someone who is extremely depressed…like my father. I encourage him to turn to the Lord…which he hasn’t fully, and I do honestly believe that God could heal him. When talking to him, I notice the error of his thinking, and try to redirect it to the truth, but at the same time, I see in his eyes, and hear in his voice a rejection of the truth. I’d never want to tell someone that I believe meds are unnecessary, when they could be keeping that person from suicide or another crazy thing…which has happened quite frequently with my dad even while on meds. But in truth, I do believe that there is a better way.
Dr. Maxwell:
Your post gave me such a peaceful insight!! Thank you so much!
Todd:
This has been SO awsome! Thank you.
I would like to address the positive side of deep emotions that sometimes come our way. Dr. Maxwell said that not all emotions are bad and I truly agree. I think that it’s a trap to think that Christains should always be healthy, wealthy and in a constant state of bliss. King David is the gold standard for having a heart for God and he had huge highs and lows of emotion. We wouldn’t have many of the Psalms if it weren’t for David’s deep lows. I would like to challenge those who, like Imd, have huge tender hearts to try writing a song or poem or any creative outlet that could bless the body of Christ.
Right on Terriann!!
What an awsome thought, Terriann!
Imd – it is NOT only you.
I turned off my MSN internet home page because the news was producing too much anxiety for me to function. If the placebo effect being discussed above applies to medication, certainly media input can have an equally powerful effect.
Like you, I am very concerned for my children and grandchildren. I keep pretty much exclusively in healthy media – The Word and biblically based extracurricular reading.
Todd #12 lol
Terriann #19 St. John of the Cross (author), Martin Luther (I think he might have done something famous), William Cowper (hymn writer), John Bunyan (author), David Brainerd (missionary) and Horatio Spafford (author of “It is Well with My Soul) to name a few that also went through the dark night of the soul.
Todd #22…what she said!
OK, I’m not trying to be annoying, but remember what I said last post about the possibility of taking a pill to deal with my bitterness? I heard on the radio that the Mental Health community of doctors (something like that) has determined that extreme bitterness is a Mental Disorder, closely associated with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome!
Don’t worry Michele you won’t have to take a pill all just share my pot with you
Maybe we could start a fellowship
qwe – that’s funny because I know you’re joking.. but others might not.
Just to clarify.
Sorry I tried to use the happy faces,but your right not all will know. Thanks, we need a joking face.
Heh-heh, qwe, even though that is pretty funny (and sort of sad) to think about, I don’t want anyone to think my last comment was making light of depression.
I’ve been thinking about one side of my family a lot, though, the side that struggles most with bitterness, anger, unforgiveness. When Todd opened up the other night about his own history, I thought of my own family, which at times has seemed “half-crazy” because of this weakness; My grandfather had a life-long hatred of black people because a black man had terrified him as a child. It’s rumored this same grandfather went on a killing spree in retaliation for his father’s killer. Among his children, there were fights that would end in decade long estrangements, and now this is visiting my own generation. The fruit of Depression seems to be isolation, despair, apathy, and sometimes suicide. The result of bitterness is hatred, grudges, division, and sometimes murder.
I’m not trying to change the subject here, but bitterness and anger does seem to run in families and people the same way depression does–often an inherited weakness running through blood-lines.
Both depression and bitterness are described in scripture and we see their results in many of the stories in the Old Testament. I’m trying to be careful here, really, but neither of these seem to be separated as human weakness that is different than any other in the long list that Adam gave us, nor are they described as sickness, but the result of our inherited sin. I’m asking this, not to seem heartless, but is there really such a thing as “mental illness”?
You guys, I’m not being sarcastic, or trying to hurt anyone. The descriptions of depression that have been described in this study have broken my heart. When my daughter struggles with it, I feel so sorry for her, I just wish I could take some of it for her. I’m just trying to understand why it’s considered different than any other horrible temptation that plagues us. Homosexuality, fear, greed, addiction, etc. These can be overwhelmingly painful sins–is depression different? Paul describes so much of these in his many lists in the New Testament, and he never recommends a clinic for disorders, or even a substance, (wine in the case of Timothy’s physical issues) but commands the means of grace that strengthen our faith: repentance, the sufficiency of scripture, fellowship, etc.
I’m sort of insecure, and almost posted this anonomously but help me understand.
Also, I think the panel did a great job the other night.
If I may, I would like to address the questions that was asked by Todd: “I am a mother with a wonderful home, husband, and children, but I am depressed.” The answer by the panel was good, and thank you all for your blessed input. When the question was asked, I thought…I COULD ANSWER THAT!!! I had spoke to other women that night on my view, and they all agreed. The Lord has made us to be givers… and this is what we do best and love doing it!!! But, there are times, when there is off balance in our lives. Just loving and giving to our family, and as a person, we get LOST in all of it, and we DON’T even know it. The Lord has given us all gifts, and we as mom’s, need to pray and look for those gifts. They could be spiritual or just talents in anything that makes you have joy in your life. (fun too)
Mine was at the begining, golf. From there is was many things. And, you will find joy in the Lord in all of it… trust me…it worked for me. I hope and pray that sharing this, it will help.
On depression… been there too… have a extreme bi-polar daugher. In sharing… I can’t express myself enough, in sharing with you…. TO KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS…. it took me many years to learn that, and to fine it to be soooo TRUE. Don’t waste those years being depresed, when you can turn to him.
Right now, I would love to be there with all of you in your hurts, broken hearts, etc., and put my arms around you. So, I am there in His spirt loving you.
MANY BLESSINGS TO ALL …
To Michele:
Perhaps I should leave this one for the pastors to interpret and help, but I would like to take a stab at trying to sort through some of your several questions.
The core question is whether there is more than one definition of depression and I think there is.
1. If I despair over my sin and the “reality” that it damns me and I sulk thinking that God could not forgive me, then my despair [depression] is not the sin. The sin is the unbelief that the cross or blood atonement was enough. The depression/despair is the logical emotion of being damned. The solution is to believe correctly (repent), change your mind and the despair should resolve logically.
2. If I lose my brother to death and grieve, that is human and not sin. Jesus did not rebuke grief, he comforted it and wept Himself and commanded us to weep with those who weep.
3. If I have not slept in 3 days due to an injury and the resulting pain, I will be a grouchy mess with the tendency to be really self-centered. Assuming the injury was not caused by a sinful act, the physical exhaustion and depressed mood results in behavior that is sinful, but the feeling itself is not sin. That type of depression does not need repentance either. In fact when Jesus was in the wilderness 40 days I think he was falling into this category of weakness and bodily “depression.” He was vulnerable, but didn’t sin, even in the down-ness
of physical weakness.
4. If I grow up in a lost family where there is no love and evil is modeled continually, I may become a nasty fellow, not given to love. That sour disposition is sad, but not sinful. I may do evil things which need repentance, but the down mood is the logical, appropriate way to feel when no one has shown me love.
5. If the hypothesis is true that there can be biochemical depletion of neurotransmitters that cause depressed mood and that it is genetically determined (like brown or blue eye color), then the state of that person being depressed is not sin, its just miserable. We don’t call a legless baby a sinner due to his genetics (other than his connection to Adam). The mood may lead to sin, but there is no sin to be repented of by being born a certain way. (I realize that homosexuals use the same argument to justify their behavior. I’m not convinced homosexuality is biological in the first place. Secondly, it is specifically taught against as sin whereas, I am having a difficult time finding depression in any of the above types called sin.)
Your statement: “I’m just trying to understand why it’s considered different than any other horrible temptation that plagues us. Homosexuality, fear, greed, addiction, etc. These can be overwhelmingly painful sins–is depression different?” My answer is yes. I think you are right that depression creates a whole set of temptations, but is different when is just the mood, before it creates bad actions.
Homosexuality: the belief that God made a mistake in making me male or that he wants me to have union with my gender.
Greed: the belief that my stuff is mine rather than a gift from God and I am the provider. Misunderstanding of the purpose of God’s blessings
Fear: the belief that God is not able to handle this situation and that He is not near.
(obviously not the only type of fear–having your stomach in your throat looking down from a tall bridge seems more to be programmed in by God as a good type of fear.)
Depression: the belief that… its not about belief. Its an emotion that can result from faulty [sinful] belief as in #1, or grief, pain, exhaustion, nurture or nature.
Eph 4:26 says to be angry and do not sin. Here anger is not called sin (wouldn’t be commanded to be angry if it was), but it can lead to sin. I would maintain that some emotions are healthy signals that warn of other’s sins, or eminent sin on my part. Jealousy that my parents gave more to my brother (they don’t owe either of us anything) is sinful; whereas, jealousy over an unfaithful mate is not–they owe the faithfulness. God jealously desires the spirit He has made to dwell in us. Is God’s jealousy sin? no.
The desire to help the depressed is noble. How we help is the rest of this question that you posed. Going back to the 5 types above.
1. Those despairing damnation need the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement taught–
correct doctrine
2. Those grieving, need compassion, listening ear, a come-along-side weeper to join them,
2 Corinth 1:4
3. Pain or sleeplessness from injury. Try pain killer or sleep help. Treat underlying medical
condition. For exhaustion–take a nap, get a muffin
4. Teach to love, teach the love of the Father, show love.
5. Genetic or biochemical. Give correct doctrine, comfort, encourage good sleep, nutrition
and exercise, teach to love and work for a living. If all that fails or isn’t going anywhere
due to gloomy withdrawal, consider medication.
PS
Have you worked on this bitterness? I suspect you probably have heard it all. If you are really wanting deliverance from that, bounce it off someone who can help you. This is a rather public forum and the pain sounds profound. Why not make appointment with a pastor. Hate to see that snare on anyone. Can put a big hole in the old emotional bucket.
Your brother, Kevin
Okay, I am like Michele, trying to understand the issue.
It seems to me if all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God then what we see is its results. No matter if we deal with the results by medication or not, the cause is still sin and needs to be dealt with.
Having said that, though, we can resolve the main issue, sin, but still have to work through the results (whether by medication or not). So the question would be is depression a result or cause? Dr. Maxwell (#31) is trying to answer that. If I understand him, depression is basically a reaction to sin or a sin-induced event and thus, in itself, not sin.
So, again, if I understand the line of reasoning, medication, whether it be morphine, pot, or some other mood altering chemical (or maybe counseling for that matter), is a tool to help stabilize the person so that the underlying cause can be corrected. Now the difficult part is, as I stated in my first paragraph, if the ultimate cause of sin is dealt with (I don’t veiw remorse, grief or sleeplessness as sin – they too are results) and I still have the remaining result of depression, what then?
I am finding that in this world of sin induced results that the answers we seek are not a simple one size fits all. It is definitely a Divine relationship issue. Cowper never did “beat” depression but John Bunyan did. Both, it seems (we have Bunyan’s own testimony but I am not aware of an autobiography from Cowper thus “it seems”) sought and believed God. For me, a completely experiential, subjective but yet, I hope, biblical start to the answer, is that TW in #30 is right when she said, in my paraphrase, to seek God through Jesus empowered by the Holy Spirit. From there…
My guess, after reading everyone’s comments, is that there are many more questions (and opinions) out there but it ultimately comes to our relationship with God and trying not to define His faithfulness (and thus the results) in our terms. Maybe we are to “work out your own savlation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for HIS GOOD PLEASURE.” Philippians 2:12-13
Just a thought…
Mr. Crabby, Great summary of the thinking going on here! I’d be interested to see how Todd J addresses the idea that depression as a result isn’t sin, but the sin that led to it is. Is there a depression that Scripture would catagorize as sin?
To all the bloggers, thanks for allowing me to try to crystalize some of my thoughts. The difficulty Wednesday night was the lack of information that went behind the broad questions. As we have wrestled with concepts here, it seems that we all come from our individual perspectives and try to create a grid to explain depression in broad strokes, when Mr. Crabby’s point of working this out individually with the Lord’s help and presence for the individual. We know God has laid out principles to follow in all life (except when it comes to the wii, Todd) as in 2 Tim 3:16,17.
Questions for Bible students:
1. We have looked at depression from a physical and emotional perspective. Is there a spiritual cause beyond the Elijah effect? Ie–demonic oppression and how it plays a role on our flesh.
2.What does one do with a depressed, once-born person?
If resistant to wanting to hear more of Jesus, is giving comfort good? What kind of comfort?
Jesus didn’t chase the commandment obeying rich guy, but let him go away sad. Is that what we do after proclaiming the truth?
3. Is giving a depressed once-born person medication to relieve emotional pain short circuiting God’s plan? He does cause the rain to fall on the evil and the good.
Kevin, thank you. I agree with your insightful answers and observations (#33). You clarified some issues I’ve wondered about.
Oops. I was using Mr. Crabby’s computer (he finally left the house for a spell – LOL) and I failed to change the name before smacking the enter key! #34 is my post.
Thank you for taking so much time to answer us, Kevin.
Also, about my bitterness; It’s not a debilitating pattern, or thorn in my flesh, but a sin that I constantly struggle with, a tendancy that my heart takes. I made reference to it, because it’s an ongoing battle that I have, probably like someone who gets depressed, or falls into lust, etc. I’ve certainly not arrived, but find escape in remembering what I’ve been forgiven of, how much it cost and the great love that it was born from. How can we not forgive when forgiveness is obviously so important to Him?
I’m still undecided on the medication debate, especially , since it’s an hypothesis (educated guess) that the depressed brain is actually different than a normal one. Depression may not ever be a true medical problem (#5, on your post #31) but a personality that’s prone to a certain temptation, much like homosexuality or, again, bitterness.
Has the medical community truly seen a great success rate when the depressed are treated with meds? I’m not being sarcastic, my question is sincere. In my limited experience, they’ve not helped once. In fact, a friend, a Christian brother, jumped off the Foresthill bridge seven years ago after years of being on anti-depressants. The last time I saw him, he looked a thousand years old and was shuffling through a parking lot, almost comatose. When I’d first met him, he struggled with depression, but was a vital, funny, sweet and creative guy, not the shell that he became after his endless quest, trying to get his prescription “right”. Again, I haven’t known a lot of folks who’ve used them, under 10 people, but they didn’t help any of them, in fact, made them worse. Perhaps you’ve seen many successes. I’d really like to know.
Thank you again, brother. You’ve been very humble and patient.
Michele… Too let you know, I am not a doctor, etc. My heart breaks for you with this thing, that is tearing your God given life apart from HIM. I would like to share with you, a truth from the Lord. Corrie ten Boom’s book, THE HIDING PLACE, if have not read it, I PRAY that you will. Over the many years of my life, Corrie has been my mentor, and I hope she will be yours too. One thing she shared that has been my life’s help is: “THERE IS NO PIT SO DEEP, THAT ”HE” IS NOT DEEPER STILL”" MY DEAR SISTER IN CHRIST.. I PRAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL HELP YOU TO PRAY AND REACH OUT TO OUR JESUS.
MY LOVE AND PRAYERS.
To TW: do you know something about Michele that is not apparent from her posts here? I thought her description of her struggle with bitterness was pretty much submitted to Christ, acknowledging the sin of it and recognizing her Savior’s mercy to her and knowing she should have His love for others. The struggle we all have against sin in our lives is well described by Paul in Romans 7. Fortunately he outlined the direction to go by walking in the Spirit in chapter 8. The solution you suggest is true and accurate “pray and reach our to our Jesus.”
Also Psalm 119:9-11; Eph 6:1-12.
By the way, Corrie is one of my heroes too. Thanking God for lice or cockroaches (I forget which) and then only later finding out they were spared being raped because of the varments. May we all learn to give thanks in ALL things.
Kevin
To Michelle: On the medication success front. I would have to say that I was very skeptical in the 1980s. I come from a Biblical base that says that:
“greater is He”,
“all Scripture valuble… for instruction… that the man of God…perfect and complete… 2Tim 3″ “sharper than a 2 edge sword”,
Psalm 73–”then entered the Sanctuary of God and perceived their end…I WAS like an animal before Thee.”
I want always for Christ and His Word to be lifted up and found True. So when confronted with the circumstances when after months of counseling various people and seeing that there were some who believed, agreed with the Word about their lives, but still had the dark cloud. The older meds like tricyclic antidepressants (Trazadone, Elavil, Pamalor…) made people sleep better, but I didn’t see much improvement.
When Prosac came out, I was slow to start using. However, I have to say that I can think of many cases where someone who was overwhelmed was helped. The problem with anecdotes is that they are always going to favor whichever side one wants to win. Your experience is 0 for 10.
Of the ones who go past the initial attempts with cognitive treatment (talk) and have physical manifestations of depression, I’d say 60% have a very favorable response and only 10-15% have adverse responses. The observation of trial and error has some merit.
One was a young teen who had cancer, missed school, was suicidal. Over the subsequent year, she became more engaged. Was it loving parents-yes; her Christian school–no,(felt too different from peers); her talking to a counselor and venting-yes; her relationship to Christ–yes; the medication–seemed to be the turning point when the others were able to help after no help for months after the Chemo. After 2 years she weaned off the medication and did fine for 6 months, relapsed, went back on meds for a year and is now off 6 months and doing well. She is learning some skills, got through the scary season. Is it subject to interpretation–yes.
Who knows how long your friend would have lasted without the help. The fact that medication is added is usually a sign that other things are not working and it is by definition a tougher case. Sometimes it’s just a lazy doctor who is not investing the time to refer for help or be a help more than a 30 seconds to write Prosac.
The bottom line is MANY forms of support are needed. Prosac in a vaccuum blunts the emotions, but doesn’t make the person feel loved or start rethinking his purpose in life. TLC is a big component. The Holy Spirit is vital. The person’s own thinking processes limit or allow growth.
Kevin… no, there is nothing that I know about Michele, other then what she has shared. In her post #36, the first few lines is sharing, “a sin that I constantly struggle with” so touched my heart, I just felt lead to share with her about Corrie.
Hey…. it was lice.
Did you ever see the movie, The Hiding Place?
Blessings..
Todd, I have enjoyed reading this discussion and I’m looking forward to tomorrow night. There is much to wrap up and cover, I’m so glad I’m not you! So glad in fact that I feel my mood lifting
I’ll be praying for you
Hi Terriann – I’ve enjoyed this discussion as well. I cannot make the subject out to be as simple as some on this thread have decided it is.. but as I said there can be a diversity of thought & conviction.
I am very much looking forward to wrapping things up tomorrow night with some of what I believe to be the “main & plain” things.
Looking to Jesus!
Dr Kevin Maxwell mentioned going through the Bible and writing his own bible using the word. Which helped him know who he is in Christ and how God saw him. Could you take that a bit further and explain exactly what you did, it seems that would be very healing, and I’m very interested in do the same. I too have unexplained anger. Thank you.
TW: Thanks so much for your always loving concern. You remind me of the little “Mother-Hen” of the blog. I do think I may have made it sound like I’m walking around in a bitter, angry world–thank the Lord, not often, but sometimes, and less and less as God sanctifies me. But, I’m not stupid, I know this is my achilles heel, and I watch my heart. My husband is also pretty perceptive and calls me on it when I begin holding a grudge. I’ve read the Hiding Place several times, and the power of that story becomes greater every time to me, and you’re right, it’s all about mercy and forgiveness. You close the book knowing you must forgive.
Dr. Kevin, thanks again for the careful, thoughtful answer. It was interesting and enlightening. This whole series has given me a lot to think about. I loved much of what you said last week on the panel; especially the points made about the heart and how the Word was sufficient to counsel, comfort and heal you. That was a powerful moment in the evening, and gave hope to us all.
Looking forward to tomorrow night.
There are periods in my life when in the interest of teaching others, I neglect the Word in my own life. It’s easy to apply the Word in other’s lives and not see the log. Bible study for others is not the same as what Ed mentioned the other night in his personal devotions. Sometimes the indepth Bible study can be a mask for doing the real stuff related to what is God saying to me. Who cares if Methuselah was alive at the time of the flood–big whoop that I figured that out, but am struggling with important relationships.
The “Kevin Bible” was born out a season of anger at one sentence uttered by Cissy that I totally felt was contrary to being godly on her part. After 9 months of resentment (this was 25 years ago) I had thoughts that were incompatable with calling myself a follower of Jesus. When I realized how incongruous I had become, I finally asked the Lord for help.
He said, “how long since you’ve listened to me?” I realized that it had been 6 months since I learned from the Word for me.
Over the next 6 weeks I read for “what are You saying to me right now?” I would read for gathering anything that had to do with what God could be saying to me these days. I breezed through the “begats” in Matthew 1 and by the time i finished the Sermon on the Mount I had about 4 pages copied. I would go from 5-10 pages a day, depending on how much I had to write. The first day I was convicted about the “whoever is angry with his brother” part. By the time I got to the “cherishing your wife” part in Ephesians 5, I was already softened up for the Holy Spirit’s gentle kill on my flesh. I finished the project, listening with new ears and softer heart. I knew I had to confess my bad critical behavior and ask forgiveness and for a fresh start. The cleansing process of the washing of water with the Word (renewing mind) prepared me to see things His way and not to cast blame on her original statement. He opened my eyes to the truth behind her statement, that, while painful and I wish spoken differently, was necessary for me to correct something missing that God put back into our relationship. When she graciously forgave me for the critical spirit for 9 monnths and we agreed to drop Johnny Carson and Harlequin novels and get back to a good bedtime with Bible open, we were more in love than any other time previously. God healed it in 6 weeks of Bible reading and listening and 2 weeks of being together in His wholeness.
Over the years, I have seen many healed by the application of Scripture, but not too often with the one-line zingers we all try to throw out. The renewal of mind usually takes hard work and diligence and the conviction of the Teacher (Holy Spirit).
I have assigned the Kevin or Bob or Karen Bible at least 50 times in 20 years to believers and I’ve heard back from 5 who have actually done it. Depression lifted on those 5 of 5
(without meds). What happened to the rest? I can’t summarize. It doesn’t prove that meds are never necessary, just that God’s Word is very powerful. It seems though that about every believer who refocuses on “My sheep hear my voice” does better. I know, let’s do a study of the results of before and after a 6 week scan of NT and Psalms and Proverbs and see who can resist His tender persuasive love.
I,m in! I will take the challenge of a 6 week scan of the NT and Psalms & Proverbs. I ‘ll let you know how it goes. Do I let you know on this blog or is there another?
I was being a little flippant with my last sentence. Joy, I know that you are sincere about going for this and I pray that the Lord meets you at your need as you spend time at His feet.
As far as publishing results from a challenge like this, let’s pray about whether that is a good idea. Obviously if 200 of 200 people had drastic illumination on their earthly plight, then word will get out. If only 199 of 200 do, then who do you think the enemy would focus on?
Anyway, I found writing the verses down word for word forced me to process it in my brain at some level, whereas, sometimes reading in the scan mode doesn’t allow for the memory function of the brain to kick in. Then once the 30 pages are written, its good for quick review and targets for memorization and meditation.
Doctor – thanks for your encouraging words.
Another helpful method of ingesting God’s Word is to listen to it on CD or tape. I was surprised at how much more I hear when I sit and just listen to it being read by someone else.
Todd – you mention in last night’s message (24th) that there are 4 books recommended to read but didn’t state what their titles. Would you post the titles?
Thank you.