A Tough Question answered wellSeptember 20th, 2008 by Todd JohnsonThe subject of homosexuality is one that most of us have a conviction about but one that many of us have a difficult time articulating. The church has been made to look intolerant and judgmental toward homosexuals. Below is a clip of Ravi Zacharias speaking to the issue with great clarity and compassion. Both are necessary. 88 Responses to “A Tough Question answered well”Leave a Reply |
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 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” Matthew 5:43-45 (ESV) Reading: “These Last Days: A Christian View of History” Compilation of Scholars & Pastors “John Stott: A Global Ministry, vol.2″ Timothy Dudley-Smith “Think” John Piper Listening: |
Thank you Todd. A really good article. I think he hit the nail on the head. Based on the comments after the article, very few others do.
The article was well-written and I agree with his understanding, compassionate and encouraging heart, but have some reservations about the biblical examples he gives,(that is, if I’m understanding them correctly)
When he refers to Paul and the Corinthians he seems to be saying that when he calls them “fleshly” they’re still participating in the sexual sin he lists in Chapter 6. (homesexuality, male-prostitution, etc.) In context, though, Paul is chastising them for being divisive and cliquish. The Corinthian man who fell into sexual sin is dis-fellowshipped, not “seen through the righteousness of Christ” as the writer seems to imply. He sort of mixes up the questions of “Can a homosexual be a Christian?” and “Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?” The answers to these are different, don’t you think? Same as “Can an adulterer be a Christian?” and “Can an practicing adulterer be a Christian?”
He also uses the example of Peter and the Gentiles, how long Peter was in this error, comparing it to someone walking in the sin of homosexuality. Before God revealed to Peter that Gentiles were to be part of the Church Peter wasn’t really living and walking in rebellion, just ignorance. That’s sort of different than somene knowing that something is wrong continuing in the sin. I’m not talking here about an ongoing struggle with sin that a believer (all believers) have, but a persistant, purposeful, constant unrepentant heart and lifestyle.
I did love parts of the article, though. His discussion on the bentness of our heart, and the constant draw toward that sin was helpful. Again, I may be misunderstanding it, too.
I’ve been enjoying reading all of your posts. I’ve been “lurking”, so to speak.
A question that seems to keep popping up in my mind is, “did Paul and the early Christians struggle with this question as much as we do?” If they did it certainly doesn’t show in their writings. If they didn’t then why has it become such a difficult topic for us? Is the Bible clear on this or not? Have we “modern Christians” complicated an issue that really isn’t that complicated?
At this point I’m not totally sure. You all have made some great points. But one point I believe we can all be confident in is that any professing Christian who is living in conscious, willful, continuous, disobedience to God should not be surprise when the Church treats them like an unbeliever. Our responsibility to those who believe they can live this way, and still profess faith in Christ, is not complicated at all. We are to rebuke them and call them to repentance.
Perry
You narrow-minded, dogmatic, fundamentalist.
Tom – All those who live righteous in Christ will be persecuted.
Thank you
Perry
Persecuted!!!I thought I was giving you a compliment.
Perry…Do we rebuke them and call them to repentance first? Or do we go to them in LOVE, PRAYER, ETC. first? There is a big difference!!!!
Our times NOW, homosexaulity has top billing in “EVERY” aspect of our lives. We see and hear of it constanly. I am sure it was not so, during the early church. Which, I think would make a difference in Paul’s writings. In all their writings, they seem to tackle what ever needs to be heard, to keep them in God’s grace.
Michele.. “Can a homosexual be a Christian?) Yes, if they try and keep away from the sin. Like we all try to keep from out sins. “Can a practicing homosexaul be a Chrisitan?” I would say NO to that. As, they are living a lifestyle that is sin, knowingly. The real queston is: Were they really ever Christians to began with? We can as Christian know this, only by the fruit of anyone lives. From there, it is only the Lord that knows their heart and for us to pray for them and let the Lord deal with them.
Blessings….
TW – I wouldn’t separate “rebuke” from “love” as two exclusive acts. If we are rebuking someone it should always be done out of love. Neither would I separate the act of “prayer” from the act of “rebuking”. Prayer should always precede and be a part of any situation in which a person is being approached about their sin. I would hope that if I was wallowing in open and blatant sin that there would be loving brothers and sisters willing to rebuke me. If there were not then I would feel very unloved.
Whether or not homosexuality was a big issue in the days of the early church is debatable. But it was an issue none the less, and one that is mentioned throughout scripture. The Bible’s counsel on the subject, as with all sin, is simply to not partake in such acts. All sin is forgivable but as I stated, “conscious, willful, continuous, disobedience to God” has the natural effect of bringing into question a person’s faith.
I have a concern with the tone of some of the things I’ve read on this subject. It almost seems like many in the church are coming way to close to making allowances for this sin. Some good intentioned believers, like the link Todd gave, appear to be trying to clarify the issue but are really only making it more confusing. This is a direction that has only been apparent in our day. A hundred years ago we wouldn’t have even considered debating this. It was a settled issue.
We may change but God hasn’t. I find my security in the His unchanging Word and it is very clear on the subject of homosexuality. I want to have a heart of love for the homosexual and that is why I will always seek to warn them of the consequences of that detestable lifestyle. That’s what the Word does from beginning to end.
Grace
Beautifully said Perry.
Perry and Tom are both fundaMENTALists.
sigh
Amen, Perry.
Perry #52 What I was trying to say is, you can’t have one with out the other, prayer, love and rebuking. They all go together. In reading your post, you seem to have left that out. But, you certainly made it clear now, and I agree.
A hundred years ago, “It was a settled issue.” Yes, it was a settled issue becuase there was no issue at that time.
Blessings…
As to the discussion about if homosexuality has only really been an issue in our generation.
I’m pretty sure from the remaining literature we have from the Roman Empire, we can say that homosexuality was far more “open” and excepted by the ancient Greek/Roman culture.
some links to back up the claim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancie nt_Rome
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/
h ttp://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/sexuality/a/aa011400a.htm
I think the fact that America and most of the western world has been heavily influences by biblical truth, has changed the conception of what a “homosexual” is. The Romans and Greeks were the byproduct of generation after generation of flawed humanity. The conceptions of God’ sexuality and morality had been very lost. In fact, they had been so lost that the prevailing attitude towards things like homosexual desire or even pedophilia was indifference at best or full blown acceptance at worst.
Then came Jesus. He changed things in case we hadn’t noticed. The “west” in large part is due to the teachings of Jesus, though while not followed always, heavily influenced Europe and American morality and culture.
Here’s the thing… now with our western backdrop (Christ influenced culture) homosexuality is alien and foreign to even those who do not love/follow/submit to Jesus. But those walls are being broken down. Slowly being eroded to allow for this lifestyle to be common place once again like it was in ancient Rome.
So to say that this time in history is the worst, or even to say that its not as bad as ancient Rome, is erroneous. The time is now. We have new context now for the same issues they were dealing with back in Rome.
Praise God we have a bible to tell us, no matter what time we are in, Or culture we belong too, what is truth and what is false. Praise God that he has given us a word that can meet us wherever we are and tell us the Glorious good news.
Sorry about this long winded post. This subject has gotten me fired up in a good way I think.
Grace
Oh man it looks like my post didn’t get posted…
The Lord must have thought it unimportant. I guess you guys are gonna miss out.
Grace
Ken’s comment #39 has just been released from comment purgatory (the filter that caught it and didn’t release it until now).
And Ken – I agree, but can I throw something at that comment that might be controversial?..
Sin is sin, I get that! No sin is greater in God’s eyes than another (maybe). But when you read Romans 1 (1:24-27) you discover that when we reject the truth (God) He then gives you over to a debased mind (ESV – dishonorable passions) to do things that are “unnatural”.
Comparing heterosexuality to homosexuality is to compare something that is natural to something that is unnatural.
Is this not why there is a stronger reaction to homosexual sin than to heterosexual sin?
Thinking out loud folks… don’t panic… just think with me.
Todd, that may be the reason that we fear this sin for our children and loved ones more than others and it seems to be a more binding, weighty prison than, say, stealing.
Although homosexuality might be unnatural in man’s eyes (accounting for the stronger reaction), isn’t all sin unnatural to the Christian?
Greg – Unnatural, yes and no.
I wish all sins were unnatural to me, but until God frees me from this body of sin and death… O wretched man I am. A new nature and an old man at war every day.
But still does not answer the question as to why God declares homosexuality to be “unnatural”. Allow me to state the obvious – God has created a man to fit perfectly with a woman in a way he has not “man with man or woman with woman”. It is a matter of nature. This is a simple chalk board illustration in 10th grade health. I’m not at all trying to be crass, I’m being as sincere as I can be in attempting to explain why this sin is more difficult for most to understand, and many to suggest it is just like all sin.
And I also suggest that it is not only unnatural in man’s eyes (Greg’s words) but unnatural in God’s (Who created the man and the woman to be together).
Didn’t know where to post this, as there are three going on. I wanted to let you, “”JOHN PIPER”" lovers know, that he is speaking in Chicago in a couple of weeks, with Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Joni Earecson Tada, Janet Purshall, etc. to over 6,0000 women, True Women’s Conference 08. HOW ABOUT THAT!!!
Blessings…
I thought we had actually gotten through an entire thread without Piper being referenced. So close!
Oh well, maybe next time…
Todd – Not possible. Sorry.
Sorry Todd…I panicked and lost my head. I’m okay now…
Thats a great point Todd.
Good point Todd.
Many “big” sins also carry more disasterous consequences than others.
Todd very good point!
Part of the difficulty – I think – in talking about this topic is that it requires different treatments depending on who we’re talking to. We should address this differently for those outside the church than with those in the church who are saying it’s OK.
I listened to this Mark Driscoll message this morning and thought it was pretty relevant. Worth a listen.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Confer enceMessages/ByConference/41/3261_How_Sharp_the_Edge_Christ_ Controversy_and_Cutting_Words/
Thanks Chris good message.
If anyone is still reading this thread my post #63 just got released from purgatory.
God has the right timing for all things, including that post.
Todd has said he can’t tell us what or for whom we should vote, but I would like to point out a proposition we should not fail to vote on as Christians. A yes vote on Prop. 8 will show our congressmen that we are against same sex marriages. If the majority of the people in our state are against it, why was it passed to allow it for only a few for it?!? Not enough people voicing their opinion thru voting. Please fellow Christians, let’s stand up for OUR rights!
(So sorry I became a commercial, ut it pertained to this blog.)
Last sentence was supposed to be “But” it pertained…Having problems with sticking keys and the typist. :p
Mike – Thanks for clearing that up!
A man who does his homework. It’s a beautiful thing!
I’m sorry if this has been said, I haven’t read *all* the posts here.
I have always compared homosexuality to alcohol/drug addition to clarify my understanding of their sin.
I believe that they are born with it, it is in their genes, and they will struggle with it for a lifetime, whether acting on it or not. Same with alcoholism.
The only difference is in our perception/acceptance. In our culture of the world today, homosexuality is acceptable and warmly received. Alcoholism is not. So, an unsaved gay person doesn’t feel what they are doing is wrong and will fight for that.
But in the Christian world, both are equal sins, with equal battles. My husband got “on the wagon” once he was saved because God filled the place in a drinker’s heart that *needs* his drug to find peace. But Joe also fell off the wagon now and then in times of stress, just like we all struggle with sin, he was not healed permanently. I try not to judge a homosexual in any different way that the many people I know that struggle with alcoholism.
HTH,
God Bless!
Dawn
Todd(#65)said:
“No sin is greater in God’s eyes than another (maybe).”
1 John 15:16 “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.”
The practice of sodomy is not necessarily the “sin leading to death”, but John seems to indicate here that there are greater and lesser sins.
Any thoughts?
Crabby – - That was my point. It seemed that everyone was trying to say that all sin was equal and none greater than the next. I don’t see that as true Scripturally.
I understand with everyone that sin is sin, that’s why I said “maybe” (I was being generous). You will need to read the comments leading up to my statement in #65 to see what I was attempting to correct.
And it’s great to hear from Mr. Crabby. I like him already – - great comments!!!
Thanks for clarifying, Todd. I’m looking forward to hearing your message when we get to that part of 1st John in the current series.
Yes, Mr. Crabby rocks…
Mike – thanks for reminding us (entry #63) of the cultural state that existed when Paul wrote. It’s something I had thought about and well worth noting. Paul did not mince words, neither should we (once we are clear and prepared, that is).
Along this thread, Tim Challies has written an excellent article today over at http://www.challies.com
Todd-
Let me clarify what I have said earlier in this post…
This topic of homosexuality and sin came up in a high school guys’ Bible study last night. The same question was presented,
Isn’t homosexuality an “unnatural”, (not God designed) relationship, and therefore the natural consequences of it more far reaching? ”
It is true, all sin is sin, but, as one of the guys brought up, taking a cookie from a cookie jar and committing a homosexual act have different damaging consequences. Even our legal system gets it right in this area; not all crimes are punished equally. The ramifications of certain choices will usually carry the gravity of the sin. In the end, all of it needs to be punished…or forgiven.