This is an excellent time for an intermission, personally speaking.
I’m sorry that I didn’t enter into this last week’s dialogue. It was a very busy week and I really didn’t come up for air until this morning. Now I’m on vacation and it will probably take me five days to start breathing normally (I don’t unwind easily).
“Intermission” happens to be the title of this chapter (which really isn’t a chapter) and this would be a great time for all of us to share a bit about what we are learning so far and how we’ve been impacted by the book, the blog, each other.
I did notice that the previous discussion on Taking the Bible Literally turned pretty technical. I certainly don’t mind some heady stuff being discussed from time to time, but I definitely don’t want the discussion to stay there. My goal for this book club is more than information, it is edification, and I fear that “big” talk will discourage many from commenting and participating.
So… let’s keep going and spend this week discussing “the intermission” as well as reflecting and encouraging one another with things being learned.
Thanks ALL for the participation!!!
“Come, let us argue it out” - Isaiah 1:18
July 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Todd-Have a refreshing vacation.
Todd-I certainly don’t mind some heady stuff being discussed from time to time, but I definitely don’t want the discussion to stay there.
I will try to temper name dropping Augustine. But as I have read ahead, it will be hard in the next 2 chapters as they are pretty heady. Keller cites Sartre, Nietzche, Kierkegaard, Russel, Kant, Augustine for starters. These men are not necessarily light reading. But I am impressed how he distills their philosophy so that the reader can grasp some of the big ideas that have captured the imagination of academics.
blessings
July 7th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Frank wrote - “I am impressed how he distills their philosophy so that the reader can grasp some of the big ideas that have captured the imagination of academics”
That is what I love most about this book. It actually takes more effort & skill (gifting) to take something complicated and make it accessible than to take something complicated and make it sound complicated.
I’m am as impressed with Keller’s heart as I am his mind.
July 7th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Todd- One more after thought. I heard a Philosophy Professor from Berkeley say..We have 2 competing traditions in Western Culture. The Rational which is critical, timeless, detached and Universal. We also have Revelation which is historical, committed , involved and particular.
He mentioned that many philosophers have tried to bridge the gap between these two opposite ways of looking at Truth claims.
I feel Keller has cleverly side stepped the argument and shown the limits to reason and making Reason “GOD” as Dawkins has and shown the reasonableness to Faith. His chapter “Leap of Doubt” is a take off of Kierkegaard’s famous “leap of faith” statement.
I also enjoyed his mention of the creeds in establishing a standard, a springboard for correct orthodoxy.
This Keller guy…very shhmaart!
blessings again
July 7th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Brevity is the soul of wit—–Shakespeare
July 7th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Todd – With all the smoke I’m not sure it’s possible to “breath normally”, but good luck anyway!
Well everyone, I’ve really enjoyed the fellowship with all of you. Yes the discussions have been good too but only because of those I’ve had the privilege of getting to know through the discussions. Some of you I already knew and some I found in the fellowship list and crossed your paths at Church. I hope that we all, at some time in the near future, have the opportunity to meet. Some of you have chosen not to display your full name, which is fine, but if you see me at Church please bless me by saying hello. My picture in the fellowship list is not very accurate anymore since I lost 35 lbs, cut off most of my hair and no longer wear glasses. But I can usually be found on Sunday mornings in the front parking lot wearing a very stylish orange vest directing you, in a very friendly way, where to park. I’m there all 3 services.
So far this book has mostly been an educational experience for me, yet something I would’ve enjoyed more during the first 20 years of my faith when, due to my own pride, I believed I could effectively argue someone into the Kingdom. Please don’t get me wrong – I don’t think that’s Keller’s assumption here. He’s written a good book and I’ve learned a great deal from his knowledge and experience. The sections on the humility and charity of Christianity spoke to my heart and challenged my thinking and our discussions on chapters 2, 4, 5 and 6 were extremely edifying. It seems that whenever the book or any of you say something that challenges me in my faith that is when I sit up and take notice. I want to be challenged. I want to grow, and if God will enable me, I want to be a part of your growth as well. That’s why we’re all here, right?
So in closing, let me just say that it is my desire that most of my posts focus on how all this works out practically in our lives and how God is glorified through us as a result of what we learn. The rest of the time I plan to be just plain silly. Sorry, I’m a Dufus!
July 8th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Perry- I thought I recognized you. You’re the guy with the funny hats…right?
blessings
July 8th, 2008 at 7:10 am
No, not him. Keep looking.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Todd-My goal for this book club is more than information, it is edification, and I fear that “big” talk will discourage many from commenting and participating.
Todd- we are both incapable of big talk as I stand 5’7’’ and I guess you stand 5’8””. But seriously…I was saved in a Charismatic/Pentacostal Church which very much shunned reason. The emphasis was experience ,emotion and faith over reason. I can’t imagine anyone from my old church reading this book. It would be too “ heady” for them. They spoke in tongues, got slain in the spirit, received words of knowledge, prophesied, did holy laughter etc. etc etc. They got an A+ for loving anyone that came into the church however. The expression was..you will get “love bombed”. The pastors came out of the Jesus movement.
This brings me to my point, there is a large segment of Christendom out there that theologically embraces experience. The Assembly of God denomination has evangelized the most people in Latin America. They embrace the culture and highlight an emotional, experiential response.
I do not find it surprising that Keller has been successful in New York with educated 20 somethings . The analytical approach has been a hallmark of the presbyterian church. The challenge has been to strike the right balance and tone for the culture…and I believe Keller will be attractive to those that are reasonable.
As Harold Bloom wrote in “Closing of the American Mind”….
Reason will not save you from an unreasonable person……
blessings
ps. good post Perry, I ditto your comments
July 8th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Tonight on NRB Channel on Dish TV. “A question of Origins ” @ 9:00 PM
Featuring our very own Chuck Smith……
July 9th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Anyone… I was reading about Eusebius, being the first court appointed Christian theologian, in service to Emperor Constantine. He was commissioned by Constantine, to produce 50 excellent copies of the scared scriptures, therefore he became the 1st editor of the bible we have today, The King James, with the exception of Barnabas & Hermas. Sooooooo, my question is: Is this true and if so, does it make you wonder about the others that were not added??? And, why down the line, did not someone ask questions about them??
Blessings…
July 9th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Eusebius did not edit the “scared scriptures” although the monumental task may have been a horror.<;v)
blessings
July 9th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
TW….therefore he became the 1st editor of the bible we have today, The King James, with the exception of Barnabas & Hermas.
I don’t think King James was alive in 350 AD…
July 9th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Therefore… meaning, is was to be, The King James. How do you know this is not true? What I have read about Eusebius, he did a great deal, concerning the scripture, the church, etc., right?
Blessins…
July 9th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Hey TW—I really like this stuff but I feel admonished by Pastor T not to go there. If you are REALLY interested and this question keeps you up at night ;v)..I highly recommend Early Church History taught by Dr. Frank A. James at RTS. You can receive the podcasts at RTS on iTunesU. Its all free!
RTS is Reformed Theological Seminary.
The King James came from the Textus Receptus…If you really want to read Eusebius, I have a copy of his early church history which is considered a primary source.
blessings
July 9th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Ursus O Said,
“I was saved in a Charismatic/Pentacostal Church which very much shunned reason. The emphasis was experience, emotion and faith over reason. I can’t imagine anyone from my old church reading this book. It would be too “ heady” for them. They spoke in tongues, got slain in the spirit, received words of knowledge, prophesied, did holy laughter etc. etc etc. ”
I appreciate and agree with your comments in this area. I believe in “reason” AND Biblical experiences via the Holy Spirit. (balance) What I mean by that is just because someone has abused the gifts of the Holy Spirit, does not mean the Holy Spirit should be avoided. Unfortunately, from what you and many others have witnessed, those “out-of-balance” and oftentimes unbiblical experiences just cause us to be afraid of the potential possibilities of the Holy Spirit at all…especially when it comes to miracles! So, the “Church” oftentimes is powerless to accomplish God’s plans His way.
My former pastor once said regarding the Holy Spirit that the Spirit can be likened to a weapon… Most people do not have a problem with folks in law enforcement carrying a gun. When used in its proper place a gun can be a tool to protect and guard others. The same goes for the Holy Spirit. He is there to empower us and enable us to move and be the very people God has called us to be. I believe that due to abuse in this area, many of us (me included), can do a lot of service for God in the flesh. (and we know how that will turn out!)
Anyway, that is somewhat paraphrased, but I think you get my point.
By the way, that little pastoral analogy came from our very own Chuck Smith as well.
Thanks for your comments and insight!
July 9th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Thanks for your comments Ken. My friends from my old church are some of the best people I have ever met and loved.
I like what Pastor Mark Driscoll said about himself…” I am a charismatic with a seatbelt on!”
Here is something interesting. Over at Berkeley one of the best attended churches is a Presbyterian church. The educated types see the charismatic evangelicals as hicks. They are attracted to the rational approach of the calvinists. It not surprising that men like Tal Brooke, Philip Johnson of ID fame attend this church.
blessings
July 9th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Ursus O- Philip Johnson of ID fame?
July 9th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Ken- Philip Johnson is considered the father of Intelligent Design ( ID). His book ” Darwin on Trial” is a signature book on applying logic to evolution. He is a retired Law Professor of Bolt Hall at Berkeley.
My point is that Kellers approach will attract the young urban educated professional. But what about people who are not wired that way? I think they will be attracted to the purpose driven model . The Emergant Church is hoping to fill this void with ” smells and Bells”..a cultural experiential contact with Divinity.
blessings
July 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Thanks!
July 9th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
I’ve done something twice now that I would highly recommend. I re-read the entire Book Club Blog. Very enjoyable! For those who don’t have the time here are some of the highlights from Chapters 1-5. I know it’s long but I thought you guys would enjoy re-reading some of the things you wrote.
Chap 1
Tom
“I used to think I needed all the answers before I could engage anyone and I would justify it by saying ‘what if I don’t have the answers and they stump me, then they’ll be eternally lost and it will be all my fault’. Thankfully God got through and has given me all the answers J/K. Really I realize that it’s God that does the saving, I’m called to give a reason and point them to Jesus, not have all the answers or win a debate.”
Chris
“To me, one of the key points he made was that Christianity is the only world view that allows for a position of humility toward those outside of it, because the core of our belief is that we ourselves bring nothing to the table.”
“This is one of the things that we as Christians get wrong all the time. We take our love of morality (a good thing) and project it unwittingly as the sense that we are upstanding and moral people, rather than sinners saved by grace”.
“I don’t know how, but we have to do this better. It’s a tough thing to love and fight for morality without the world getting the impression that we think ourselves to be better than them”.
Mike Smith
“I really feel that the body fails in proclaiming Grace. Somehow, someway, the world has gotten the idea that Christ = Rules. Which is really sad. I say, from my very small pool of experiential Christian wisdom, that we try with all our might to be perfect as our Father is perfect. and in the process never cease to proclaim the grace that God has on sinners and saints alike. Proclaim grace continually. so that when the world wants to point a finger at us they’ll find us already pointing a finger at ourselves. saying “praise God for His grace!” It would, I hope, change the very mindset of the unbelievers we come in contact with. From Christianity being a religion of rules to Christianity being a group of disgusting people saved, and sanctified by Gods grace.”
Chap 2
Michele
“It’s funny to me when people say that God must not exist because of all the suffering in the world. Suffering doesn’t mean there is no God, it just means this God doesn’t act the way we think He should.”
Ken
“There are many aspects to suffering that we do not understand, that’s a given. I am at a point in my life where I am weary of needing “answers” to these types of questions. My prayer is more one of, “Lord, go with me in the fire and assure me you are there.”
Geoff
“God is the only one who can do anything about someone’s suffering and sometimes we get to be tools that He will use to relieve that suffering if we are willing to do whatever the Lord wants us too! If that means washing stinky dirty wounds or just sitting there inside the dumpster area listening to his life stories then do it with joy in your heart that God is choosing you to achieve His purposes of love.”
Joe T
“I guess where I come down is that we don’t make the rules, He does. I accept what happens because I am not smart enough to know why these things happen.”
Lori
“Because Jesus suffered as He did, He could minister to me by His Spirit in ways no human was able. AND the peace that surpasses understanding guarded my heart and mind through Jesus.”
Mike
“But for us mere mortals I would say the story of Joseph is the most tangible example we can gleam from. Joseph suffered, At no fault of his own, For the salvation of a whole would be people. He was falsely accused, tempted, scorned, roughed up, and left to die. but what his brothers “meant” for evil God “meant” for good. Joseph found solace in that.
What I’m trying to say is this. We as Christians can find great comfort in knowing God is in control, even to the point of cancer and horrible deaths that take our very breath away. But what does an unbeliever have? He has no hope. None.
I think explaining Gods sovereignty over suffering to an unbeliever might be the most difficult thing in one on one evangelism period. But maybe that’s why God allows suffering in His people. for one so we can have mercy and compassion on those who have no hope and are suffering. and two for the purpose of His own Glory. Is there a way that Christ is more glorified then when one of His own children receives suffering He has pronounced and rejoices? I can’t think of any. If we cling to Jesus when the storms thrash us about in relentless fashion, it only serves to bring Him more and more Glory.”
Chap 3
Crabby Magnolia (this did not address the topic of the chapter but I enjoyed it anyway)
“Unlike C S Lewis who was “Surprised by Joy”, I was “Surprised by Dread”. One night watching a Pink Floyd movie with friends at a theater in Long Beach, I sensed something so big, frightening, and uncontrollable that it forced me to ask my friends leave the theater in the middle of the movie to take me home.
When we arrived at my apartment in Huntington Beach, I assured my friends that they could go on home and that I’d be fine. I closed and locked my front door behind me and sat down on the couch only to find the scary presence had followed me home. Terrified, the one entity I could think of that was big enough to call on for help was God. And the name I had learned to call Him in my youth was Jesus. So I prayed, “Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a miserable sinner”. The terror receded and He has remained with me ever since.
Sometimes I wonder if that scary entity was actually Him pushing me back from the brink of an abyss, because I know now that “He is not a tame lion”.”
Chap 4
Mikey McD
“I think of salt. The right amount on your meal is great; too much destroys the entire meal. I think Christians perceived of being self righteous (too much zeal) just need to balance the salt ratio. Here’s to practicing humility and following the beatitudes!”
Todd Johnson
“Joe - I can completely understand your fear of being afraid to offend when the gospel itself is offensive. With Paul, we must not be “ashamed of the gospel”. And at the same time I can completely understand where Keller is coming from where we haven’t offended with “the gospel” but with ourselves and behaviors. We don’t have to run around making apologies to everyone for the history of the church and churches, or for what we believe to be true and false. I personally want to show the world what a healthy Christian and church looks like with humility and without compromise.”
Frank
“What I am saying is the Social Gospel ends up transforming the Church and not the other way around and you end up with the likes of Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his theology of victimization.”
Todd Johnson
“While Jesus was at home with the homeless, Jesus was equally at home with the rich. He dined with them; befriended them; called some His disciples; and he taught them as well (warned them on several occasions if I recall).
Here’s a controversial thought: I have observed that many people in the church have a harder time with the rich than they do with the poor. I know I’m generalizing really badly, but I just want to throw out there the thought that there are many that have hearts that bleed for the underprivileged and hearts that are hardened toward wealth, success & abundance (however it is that we define it). Yes, there are rich persons that look down on those that ‘don’t have’ (poor; homeless; etc. etc.) but does anybody else see how we can be just as prideful and wrong to look down on a person because he ‘has’?
One final thought: When I drive down the road and see somebody that is clearly homeless, the thought I often have (and it really strikes me deeply at times) is the thought of the value of a soul. What I mean is this - if I really believe my Bible to be true then I believe that each and every one of us has something of equal worth - A SOUL. There is not one of us that is going to live longer than another (into eternity), and there is not one of us that is more or less valuable to God than another.
We place a value on a person often times based on what they have or don’t have. We need to place the value where God places it. And then act accordingly.”
Frank
“I would add another insight here to the “compassion” of the homeless. I have actually taken in a ” Homeless” person when I lived in Marin and I gained many insights into why ” Mark” was a “Street person”. Mark , seemed to judge society and blamed all his problems on “Them”. I lined up jobs for him, mostly in construction, and I had a hard time waking him up before 12:00. It reminded me of the proverb of a little sleep and a little slumber and poverty overtakes us.
In San Anselmo, we had a person called ” Walking Man”. He slept on the street and was continually and daily walking the streets, back and forth. When I inquired who this man was and where did he come from, I was told that his family was one of the wealthiest in Marin and that ” Walking Man” preferred to live on the streets…he had caught his wife with another man and lost it. His family, who took pity on him, always made sure he had the best shoes to wear, which he did. They all discovered St. Vincents Soup Kitchen ( referred to as ” Vinnies” )
I have preached repeatedly at the Redwood Rescue Mission in Santa Rosa. I have dined with homeless and encouraged them. But, I do not over pity them. Many have chose this lifestyle and some have not. Many, even if they were given a home, apt. etc, lack the skill sets to maintain and keep a residence. They are also prideful.
I over the years have more compassion for the Widow and orphan because their situation was imposed on them by circumstances they could not control.
I have more compassion for the single mother who is valiantly working 2 shifts to make ends meet and I have more compassion for the poor Mexican who illegally crosses the border to work and provide food for his family. I understand his desperation..I grew up that way.
I have no lofty self righteous compassion for the bum.”
Chap 5
Tom
“Preaching today seems to foster this by trying to sell God to people by telling them to follow God because he’ll do this or that for them because you just haven’t reached your full potential yet, but with God at your side the sky’s the limit. It seems we’ve lost the awesome Holiness of God and the sinful state we’re in. And if people understood God and His Holiness they’d realize that He has to judge sin not because He’s some mean ogre but because of His Holiness. But what’s even better is that He made a way to satisfy His judgment and in love sent His son for us so we won’t be judged for our sins, those who believe. Praise God for such a great salvation as this.”
Donnie
“Mankind is being poisoned to death by sin. Sin is defiling, rebellious, and worst of all progressive. If left unchecked, the sin becomes so pervasive that it consumes us. Remember we are all eternal beings, so imagine the ravages of sin left to grow without ceasing, without God’s intervention. Sin, unchecked, IS HELL. Just think of the earthly torment of someone in the throws of alcohol or drug addiction. It is painful to watch. Imagine that pain amplified for eternity.”
Chris
“We look at what the Bible says about Hell, and anchor ourselves in what has been traditionally viewed as the truth about the topic. All the while, we are aware that our culture and our own wicked hearts may lead us to desire a truth that is easier to swallow.
Truth ain’t easy!”
Frank
“It thus follows in our Post Modern Culture that HELL is an anachronism, something that was used during the Middle Ages to keep the serfs in line and no longer relevant for our progressive culture.”
Chris
“The crux of that message that Todd linked was that Hell, and the fear of it is insufficient to bring people to faith. They have to get a glimpse of the beauty and worth of Jesus.
Our message to gays has to be the same as what it is to everyone else in the world. That your sins are an issue - not because we think they’re wrong, but because they are keeping you from knowing the most incredible, wonderful, joy-giving being in the universe.
I think we have to be so careful about targeting the sins that seem most heinous to us and forgetting that we who know God and fail to give Him the praise He deserves - we sin far, far more than them every single day.”
Todd Johnson (one of my personal favorites)
“doofus |ˈdoōfəs| (also dufus)
noun ( pl. doofuses) informal
a stupid person.
ORIGIN 1960s: perhaps an alteration of goofus , or from Scots doof”
Mike Smith
“I know one thing though… Hell is an important part of Gods word in which Jesus preached about more then heaven. (thanks Tom) It needs to be apart of the message to unbelievers. We cant sugar coat it, or downplay it.”
Michele
“The idea that Hell is just us finally going off on our own to be left to our self-absorption, cut-off from God and all good is just not biblical. It sounds like a cosmic “time-out” or something.
A few years ago, I heard a Seeker-Sensitive pastor give an altar-call and he said, “What did Jesus come to save us from? He came to save us from our fears, our anger, and a Christless eternity.” I wanted to yell out, “That would be Hell!!! That would be God’s wrath!” Actually, when I was unsaved, a Christless eternity sounded quite appealing. To wander around for eons, focused on myself, becoming more mean and bitter, this makes sense, but again, isn’t what scripture describes. Hell isn’t just being cut-off from God, but it’s also being punished by God, tormented by God. It’s us paying for our own sin, not Jesus. How did Luther say it? “There are 2 places that sin is judged:
1. Sin is judged in hell
2. Sin is judged at the cross.”
“We must let Hell remind us of the Cross; The cross establishes the gravity and awfulness of sin. It took the death of God’s son to put sin away. Sin isn’t only awful because of what is did to us, but because of what it did to God.”
Crabby Magnolia
“I believe we have a choice, and that Hell is not a place where God “inflicts” suffering but is where one suffers because it is the place from which God has completely and irrevocably (eternally) removed His Presence. The suffering may be that the damned would still see Him but He no longer looks upon them. (”My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”)
Ken
“I have admired that mindset a lot. There is a point and time for all of us,I believe, when God has revealed Himself enough to a person. That person in turn must gratefully accept the gift of Christ, and then humbly trust God for the things he has yet to understand. There is a point that after thinking, pondering, debating, and praying, we must still come as a child. How foolish it would be to think that the Creator of the universe would have to, or need to, inform me on more than he already has in His word. He is God, I am not. That is where the conversation ends for me. And when my head is screwed on right, and my heart is not tweaked, I am at peace with that.”
Todd Arvidson
“Instead of looking to the cross, our culture has–and I would include Christianity–minimized the reality of hell, the consequences of sin, and the eternal separation from God’s love by choosing to believe man is “good.” The reality of hell and the price Christ paid was not because I am good. I’m always about personal application–so here’s my current response to the chapter. I love free will and I hate the consequences of choosing sin. I love God and I choose to rest in the bigger picture–which includes justice and mercy. I prefer mercy and learn from justice. Thank you God for Jesus–justice for me and eternal mercy.”
Levi (I really enjoyed this one…very thought provoking)
“One thought on Hell that may make it a little more palatable (not that it should necessarily be) is to consider what is exactly being punished in the fire. This is something I’ve been meditating on that I would love to put out my community of brothers and see if it holds water.
The souls in Hell are not “Human”
I think one thing that sticks in the throat is the picture of the sweet Grandmother or the unsaved friend writhing in an eternal lake of fire. But that image must be wrong because that image contains things that are good and God does not punish Goodness in Hell. The things that we love about the unregenerate are the Common Graces that he gives us all as human beings and members of his creation.
So the human soul undergoes two possible transformations at death:
1. “Glorification” for the saved. Christ is fully revealed in us and the cords of sin are totally severed. When all that is sinful in us is completely stripped away, we will become essentially holy.
2. “Horrification” for the wicked. I think this is where you have to really believe in Total Depravity. If, by nature, we are essentially sinful then death will be the peeling away of God’s Common Grace and the “Humanity” that we love in Sinners will be gone. If we are not Born Again and do not gain the righteousness of Christ, we remain essentially evil and there is no other place for us then Hell. God will eternally punish and cast away the Sinner, and I do think that in Hell, the Sinner will be nearly indistinguishable from the Sin. As we inherit the glory of Christ and become completely holy (fit for eternal fellowship with God), the Sinner inherits the horror of Satan and becomes completely wicked. Fit for eternal judgment.
I don’t know if this is wrong. (I hope I’m not stumbling across some ancient heresy, yikes!) But I do think it may bring some comfort to consider that there are no good people in Hell. And, in some sense, there are no “People” (those smiling, friendly people you meet on the street) - there are only sinners and sin.”
That’s all for now. I’ll go through chapters 6-7 tomorrow if I have time.
July 9th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Is this true and if so, does it make you wonder about the others that were not added??? And, why down the line, did not someone ask questions about them??
TW_ I think Todd will give me grace on this one as it may benefit others.
As I was listening to a lecture by Dr. Voelz at Concordia Seminary he mentioned something very interesting about ” the Canon”.
By about 180 AD the 4 Gospels and most of the Pauline epistles were established as Authoritative and Canonical. And here is the interesting point. The synoptic Gospels as well as John would circulate “together” as a pack. Like a Lord of the Rings trilogy. Now here’s the other key point that concerns your question. The early church fathers judged other books and texts in light of how they measured up to these “canonical books”. They were the standard. The professor stated something also that I had learned, which is that they were chosen because of their “Apostolic” heritage. The Gnostic Gospels and other competing texts tended to circulate by themselves.It is very evident that they teach a different Jesus.
There was no conspiracy!
Since the professor is a Lutheran, he points out that Luther did not regard Hebrews , James and Revelation as being equal to the others and that they should not be used as benchmarks for doctrine. In point of fact, there still is debate among scholars about who wrote Hebrews.
But for our purposes we can be secure that God has transmitted the right books for all generations.
blessings
July 9th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Perry- Thanks for the encouragement. It was nice to see what people have written and reflect on the first part of this book. Keep it up Barnabas!!
You all have made for some very fun discussions and debates. Lets get recharged and come with expectation to what God would have us learn in the latter section of the book!
Praise the Lord for surrounding me with such a beautiful, unique, creative, witty, thought provoking, doofusy (is that a word) local body. My wife and I thank God for this church often and this book club is just another extension of what I feel the Holy Spirit is doing in our midst.
Grace
July 9th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Perry,
Very cool and encouraging. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Makes me feel ready to dive back into the discussion.
I’m going to quote a friend, who was herself stealing this quote - “Praise the Jesus in you”. I’m glad you’re part of this conversation.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Whatever happened to Miracles?
It occurred to me after reading the INTERMISSION that their were no references to Miracles. I do not find it surprising. There is an strand of Christendom that wants their faith served without the explosion of emotion and experiences. The hands down stay in your seat crowd.
Has the culture won with these Christians in that they are embarrassed at the more Charismatic crowd.? If Science is right and the world is logical and rational then a belief that God still works miracles or that miracles are a demonstration of God’s active power are backwards and not reasonable.
There is the “Holy Ghost” strand of Christianity, as Ken mentioned, that evangelizes as St. Paul declares…” with Signs and Wonders”..not coming with crafty words but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. I wonder if we still really believe in the Evangelical camp that God does perform miracles? Or that we say GOD does, but our modern rational mind rebels against the thought.
Do we hide behind our good theology?
Perry-Good job!
July 10th, 2008 at 8:13 am
Perry - Thanks for taking the time to give us that great review. Very helpful and encouraging.
Good stuff!
I’m looking forward to part two.
July 10th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Rabbit trail…here I go.
Ursus said, “Whatever happened to Miracles?
It occurred to me after reading the INTERMISSION that their were no references to Miracles. I do not find it surprising. There is an strand of Christendom that wants their faith served without the explosion of emotion and experiences. The hands down stay in your seat crowd.
Has the culture won with these Christians in that they are embarrassed at the more Charismatic crowd.? If Science is right and the world is logical and rational then a belief that God still works miracles or that miracles are a demonstration of God’s active power are backwards and not reasonable.”
Since you do not really know me, you do not know if I am the type to swing from chandeliers in a service or hide under a pew when the action starts. (I probably sit on the pew, but I don’t’ swing from the light fixtures!) Curious, but cautious.
My take on this topic of miracles is that due to abuse, (I saw some more on TV. last night at a “healing ” service), many of us (me included) miss out on the power to do what God has called us to do. This leads to a flat and one-dimensional Christian walk.
Sometimes I find it good to revisit the scriptures in this area and just DO what God says. Pray, expect, (Don’t act as if I can boss God around by demanding things from Him) and continue to pursue the infilling and power of the Holy Spirit.
Years ago I attended a church that had a doctor lead their prayer / healing service. The worship was sweet and beautiful. Apparently there were healings performed and this Godly doctor confirmed them from time to time. Not to minimize the miraculous healings of the body, but it still stands to be true that salvation IS the greatest “healing” possible. If there was ever anything broken, it is our hearts…but I still watch and anticipate the extra blessings, whatever they may be.
By the way, that healing service was not at some over-the-top church…it was at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa with Pastor Chuck Smith.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Ken-Rabbit trail…here I go.
Ken, I don’t necessarily feel that this is a bunny trail in that there are many who have been convinced of the Gospel not by reading C.S. Lewis or Rational arguments but by a demonstration of God’s love, God’s healing or a miraculous event that shatters their worldview and pierces their heart.
I believe it is ultimately a matter of the will…thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…and that as you stated we must not shy away from the moving of the spirit.
The Liberal Theologians have lowered the bar on the Miraculous and say that a birth of a Child is a miracle. On one level, as a parent, I agree but then this makes miracles ordinary and reduceable to Nature.
blessings
July 10th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Ursus O said,
“Ken, I don’t necessarily feel that this is a bunny trail in that there are many who have been convinced of the Gospel not by reading C.S. Lewis or Rational arguments but by a demonstration of God’s love, God’s healing or a miraculous event that shatters their worldview and pierces their heart.”
Very true!
I have worked with teen guys over the years and have found that “facts” are not enough. Their salvation, (a miracle in its own rite) saves them, but they also desire to experience, yes, I dare to say “experience” God’s hand in their lives as well. (Be it a miracle if necessary.) Overpowering temptations for them: pornography, cheating, dishonesty, lack of self-discipline, illness, etc. they need to see the God of the Bible come down to earth and meet them, be real to them, deliver them. I believe He does and will. How He does it is so varied for each individual; I would not speculate as to how He will work. My son, who hated God (yes, hated), had a serious accident and He saw the love of God in how He was treated by others regarding his suffering. I was certain he would hate God all the more due to all his pain and suffering. That was a miracle! You just don’t know how God will show up. C.S. Lewis called this particular type of painful appearance,” God’s severe mercy.” I call it an undesirable miracle…smile.
There is so much to read about Miracles it can be overwhelming. I shy away from the “emotion” driven crowd, but I still watch them and wonder. After all, it stands to reason that you would have some form of emotion displayed when a miracle happens. I am not impressed with the intellectual crowd if there is no power, belief in the miraculous, or life behind what they profess. I just don’t want less than what God has for me. I want all the Bible teaches, not just what feels safe.
We serve an all-powerful God who I prayerfully need to intervene on my behalf so I can be the person He desires me to be and to truly honor Him. I think miracles can be a part of Him showing up at times. I hold my breath on this type of risky prayer subject, and then I dive in!
July 10th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Wow Ken….amazing thoughts! Is your son saved now?
July 10th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Ken- While looking for insurance for my Porche in 1986 I “randomly” called an agent , drove over and proceeded to give him “attitude”. I mean, I was working at LucasFilm making a good living ( but empty inside). He stopped his sales pitch and proceeded to tell me that I needed the Power of God’s Holy Spirit in my life. He told me that I was a rebellious young man and that God wanted to do a work in me. Years later Jack, an older men, would tell me that he felt a “word of knowledge ” for me and that he never ever did this on the job. He said he felt the Spirit so strongly that he was compelled to speak Truth to me. He invited me to Church…I went…and I have never looked back. Miracle.
blessings
July 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Ursus O- Thanks for sharing your story. Beautiful and amazing for God to cut into your life like that. Those are “God moments” and only those that know Him comprehend what you are saying.
Yes, our son is saved and has written earlier on this blog. He is Geoff from Oklahoma. His conversion is a miracle beyond miracles…seriously.
July 10th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Praise God ( and that is no cliche!)
July 10th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Ursus O-
One more thought regarding the Intellect and Christians…
As a middle school teacher I once invited an airline pilot / Believer to come and share about his vocation in my classroom for Career Day. This man was brilliant. Seriously, he knew so much about EVERYTHING. It was astounding! He made the Bible Answer Man appear common. BUT! I sooooo regretted having him in my class. He was all facts and no life. No power. Arrogance and the air of superiority came out of his pours. (I was connected with him by another coworker…my mistake. Like when Christians “recommend” movies…I usually don’t go there either.) Anyway, on the surface the kids did not get all that rattled by it all. However, they were less interested with the gospel and God and “facts” after that visit. So, words, but no power, words, but no love, words are not enough. Much more could be said on this.
July 10th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Ken-A man is most human when he experiences life with a full deck …emotions and intellect.
I liked Star Trek because we could see the interplay between SPOCK who was total intellect , BONES who was the doctor ruled by emotions and Capt. Kirk who was both ( and got the girl).
My Dad once told me on Old Mexican proverb:
There once was a missionary being taken to a remote village in canoe by a native indian. The missionary struck up a conversation. Do you know you are dead in your sins and going to hell? The Indian said ” no senor”. Oh you poor ignorant indian the man said. Did you know that you are backwards and that we are bringing civilization to you? “No Senor” was the answer. Oh, you poor ignorant indian! Did you know that I am bringing medicine that with Science will heal your illnesses? No senor? You desperate pitiful indian said the missionary.
Well, the winds picked up and the waves on the river grew violent. Soon both men were thrown from the canoe. As the indian swam to shore the missionary cried out…Save me Save me! I can not swim!….the indian replied “Poor ignorant missionary, today you will drown!
God resists the proud and lifts up the humble.
blessings
July 10th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
lol,lol,(My wife just read this.)2 X lol,lol,lol
I will remember your dad’s proverb.You retold it well!
July 10th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Just saw this on Abraham Piper’s Blog (22 Words). Seemed relevant to the overall theme of our discussions.
“If your only goal in arguing is to make a point, argue on.
If your goal is to convince, develop rapport first.”
July 10th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Here’s the rest of the highlights from chapter 6-7.
Chap 6
Tom
“If we believe in evolution then we have death before sin. I’ve heard the argument “well God was talking about spiritual death we’d suffer” thus trying to justify physical death before Adam and Eve.NONSENSE, God in the creation account after each creative act saw that it was GOOD. If there was physical death before Adam and Eve then God saw all this physical death while all these millions of creatures were evolving and dying evolving and dying and He looked upon it and said it is Good?”
“Also in Exodus 20:11 God said He made everything in six days and rested on the seventh thus establishing the sabbath.
Then there’s Jesus in Mark 10:6 were He says “FROM THE BEGINNING He made them Male and Female”.
I know that technically this is a secondary issue and this doesn’t pertain to salvation. But I think the underlined compromise in the church on this issue has been one of the reasons that there’s a lack of trust and authority for the bible we hold in our hands. We can’t be intimidated by science(especially an unproven theory) instead we need to stand on the Truth of God’s word and the creation account that’s main and plain in the scriptures.”
Joe T
“So do we now change a “living bible” to mean whatever is convenient for us at a given time? Do we become billions of earless voices crying in the wilderness, all of us shouting out what we think and none of us understanding anyone else?”
“I believe the bible says what it says, even if I don’t always understand, not a “living document” that we change to be whatever is convenient. The same attack is going on with our constitution, but that is another issue for another venue.”
Donnie
“At what instance in the evolutionary process did sin come into being? At what point in that process were any ‘evolved being’ able to think, reason, or have any of the qualities that make us in the ‘image of God’.
Besides that, the theory of evolution is BAD SCIENCE. There is no substantial proof. Of course we heard it in the Truth Project and countless other arguments.”
Mike McD
“Science works within laws (the laws of science), I work within laws (sinful nature/God’s law)… See Romans 7:14-25 below.
-How can science explain how the good I set out to do in a day are often thwarted by my sinful nature? Today I will not _____fill in the blank___________ (gossip, steal, lust, etc), yet, I find myself doing that very thing. In summary, a truly honest man understands that he is a slave to sin, and he knows that only the truth will set him free.”
Chris
“There is a middle ground I think, and one that involves a fair bit of “I don’t know”.
Here’s a few things that I’m fairly certain of:
- God put two accounts of the creation in Genesis, and they are slightly different.
- Fossil records, carbon dating and geologic evidence all point to an earth that has been here for a very long time.
- The Bible seems purposely mysterious about some things that happened a long time ago - like the fall of Satan.
My conclusion? The story is more complicated than either side thinks, and there’s some aspect of it that God has deliberately left vague.”
Frank
“Darwinists will tell you, there is no designer, there is no purpose, there is no free will , it is ultimately chance and any purpose we ascribe to Life is purely our invention. This view is inescapable in light of natural selection and the theory as it is currently proposed.
The result of this as Jesus said ” You shall know them by their fruit is…
Eugenics, Situational Ethics, Relativism , Existentialism , Marxism , Freudianism , infanticide and on and on.”
Tom
” want to raise the point about Gods purpose and His glory.
Since there’s arguments on either side and tons of data to try to interpret.
If we look at the bible and God’s word I see a God of purpose for His glory.
1.He made us for the purpose of fellowshipping and worshipping Him.
2.He made the stars in the sky and the planets for a purpose.
3.He made the animals and the birds of the air for a purpose.
In evolution everything came about by purposeless causes and according to theistic evolution God guided and used this method to make everything to me this shows a God of disorder and purposelessness.
God said He made man in the likeness of himself not in the likeness of animals.
God made the earth and everything in it to glorify Him and I don’t think the theory of evolution accomplishes that purpose.”
Todd Johnson
“Let’s toss all discussion of evolution aside for the moment. We all believe in Creation, that goes without saying here. None of us believe we are descended from apes or goo. What is in question here is the Creative process involving days, eons, “without form and void”, dinosaurs, etc. etc.?
I guess I’m interested in what you guys think of a “young earth” vs an “old earth”?”
Chris
“Days/Eons - Some contend that the word translated “Day” in Genesis 1 (Hebrew “yowm”) can be used more generally to mean something akin to “eons”. Like we would say “Back in my day” to refer not to a single day, but to a period of time.
Of course one issue with this is that it says “and the evening and the morning were the first day”
- “Without form and void” - there is a lot of speculation about what that means. I’ve heard some talk of the darkness being the remnant of a judgment that was cast on to the earth because of Satan’s rebellion. Even that dinosaur bones could be left over remnants of that time.
- Dinosaur bones - they are a huge puzzle, especially if you’re going to take a Young Earth view. There’s no mention of them in the creation account, and any way you slice it, you’ve got to try to figure out where dinosaurs fit in the equation.”
Mike Smith
“What do you suppose we do? If Genesis starts to crumble into typology then whats to stop the book of Romans from crumbling into typology. What about all the words of Jesus? Does everything now become how we perceive it. I understand that the book of Genesis has some hard things in it. A flood covered the whole earth, or they built a tower on the plain of Shinar. All the world had one tongue, or the earth was without form and void. etc. yet what are the alternatives? Why am I even having this debate that the world might be older then 6-10 thousand years old? Because science has found “evidence” contrary to what the bible says.
Do we really trust a system that is flawed by the mere fact that its made up of men? And men who for the most part have completely shunned the God of the bible?”
“My big point being this. There are some tough things in the bible. Yet I will believe the bible a thousand times over men. Especially when what man says contradicts the Word of God. Genesis has to be taken literally. Other wise we have reason to reject and change every part of Gods word. Scary.”
Todd Johnson
“Perry said, “I’m not at all concerned either way. I tend to lean toward the literal view yet willing to accept the evidence for an old earth as well.”
— Me too.
Perry said, “To me it’s all about the nature, personality and glory of God. If God is not diminished then I’m fine either way.”
— Me too.
My life continues to be a life of faith seeking understanding. And I accept that there are things that I will never understand until heaven… so walk by faith I will.”
Todd Johnson
“For all that science has to offer, it cannot deal with the sin problem. It has no answer for the sin problem. We think we’re getting a handle on life’s greatest mysteries and we cannot get a handle on the human condition that continues to deteriorate. A condition that God in His Son HAS dealt with and delivered us from!!!!
So, for all the “I don’t knows” …. there is one thing we know with certainty — The same God that created the heavens and the earth (in six days ) crushed sin and satan (in six hours).”
Crabby Magnolia
“The key to reality is in the Word. If we take the time thoughtfully reading it, many of these questions about science are answered. It’s a matter of perspective - man’s versus God’s. Jesus united the two perspectives in His incarnation. We have access to God’s perspective on science (or any other aspect of life) when we read the Bible. The Word is made alive in us as the indwelling Holy Spirit activates the Truth in our heart, soul and mind allowing us to correctly interpret what we experience.”
Frank
“I take it very simply. What is the fruit of…..? Fill in the blank. Can you see the wisdom of what Jesus said? You will judge them by their fruit. What clarity! It keeps us from falling in love with ANY theory or Idea that is Man Made.”
Lori
“My brain hurts. Proverbs 17:28″
Todd Ardvidson
“The evolutionary jumps that science requires me to believe in are far more difficult to trust than the evidence in resurrection. I personally believe that the earth was created with the appearance of age. This is a choice that does not have all the answers–and when science can’t provide all the answers, I typically say “of course it’s a mystery.” Were smart as a race–but we are finite. I know for some this is the pinnacle of belief or not. Great discussion–and I think the discussion is much better than the text. One last question/statement. Who made all of the “laws” of science? Any attempt to quantify science is an attempt to figure out the mind of God–which requires one thing–revelation.”
Michele
“If there is a Creator God, there is nothing illogical at all about the possibility of miracles. After all, if he created everything out of nothing, it would hardly be a problem for him to rearrange parts of it as and when he wishes. To be sure that miracles cannot occur you would have to be sure beyond a doubt that God didn’t exist, and that is an article of faith. The existence of God can be neither demonstrably proven or disproven.” This was much like the premise CS Lewis used in “Miracles”. (Why is so shocking that the same diety who causes the wheat to grow could speed up the process and make a lot of bread out of it?)”
Chap 7
Mike Smith
“This chapter reiterated some things that I have been taught and read about through the course of my Christian life. This was a very solid chapter for getting refreshed in the reasons why the book we all know and love is inspired from God.
Some points (some from the chapter and some not) why the bible is the inspired word of God.
Archaeological evidence - The bible gives names and dates to hundreds of real “places” that people lived, fought, farmed, died, and worshiped. As archaeologists unearth different parts of the middle east they are finding more and more evidence to the reliability of the scriptures rather then the contrary. one example is finding the name of Pontus Pilate found on ruin near what was then Caesarea Philippi. Here’s the link http://formerthings.com/pontius.htm There are plenty more evidences that have been found that validate the bible if we choose to look. Compare this to the Book of Mormon which expounds about huge cities, battles, and civilizations which thus far has yielded no archaeological evidence.
The Manuscripts - We have over 24,000 partial and complete manuscripts of the new testament. Some dating to the first century AD. (a manuscript being anything copied before the invention of the printing press) When cross checked these manuscripts give almost identical readings of the New Testament. The only difference “usually” being grammatical errors but over all saying the exact same thing.
Church Fathers - These men were church leaders in the years before the Canon of scripture. Their combined writings (so I’ve read) can account for 95% of the new testament. Which means that those Christian leaders of the first, second and third century testified to the validity of what we now read in the our bibles at home. Google these men and their writings and read for yourself. Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Eusebius.
Fulfilled Prophecy - I’ve read, and correct me if I’m wrong, that over 60% of the Old Testament is considered prophetic. Multitudes of these prophecies have been fulfilled. over 350 alone in Jesus. Including his virgin birth, death by crucifixion, and resurrection from the dead. There also have been prophecies about ancient empires and world events that only God could speak about before it happened. Including the progression of world ruling empires from the book of Danial. From Babylon to Persia, to Greece to Rome.
The exposure of the leaders of the early church. The fact that the bible points out the huge failings of Peter, James, John, etc… if this was a man made book why would they make the Leaders of this movement look that weak.
and lastly (and in my mind the most profound) the evidence of 11 of the 12 apostles giving their lives for the sake of the Gospel and their belief and assertion that Jesus was risen from the grave. The accounts of the apostles and how they died are horrifying. Including:
Peter being crucified upside down after watching his wife suffer the same fate.
James being killed by Herod with the sword.
Mark being dragged alive through the streets of Alexandria.
Bartholomew being flayed alive.
These men died saying Jesus was risen. They died because they would not renounce what they had seen. Why would these men go through such torture for something they KNEW was a lie.”
Frank
“Part of the problem, I believe, is that most Christians think Christianity started with Luther and Calvin in the 1500’s. Most Christians are cut off from 500 years of Church History and have no idea how the Council of Nicea for example settled the concept of the trinity, thanks to Athanasius. I can mention Augustine to someone and they routinely say…who?
I understand why Keller took the simple , eye witness evidentiary approach. I just thought he would get into the translations, inerrancy , infallibility thing. Probably good that he didn’t. Most people would be bored.”
Tom
“Its two different ways of looking at the Word of God.
The Catholic Church would say God gave us the Church (Catholic) and the bibles authoritative because they’ve said its authoritative. Were the Protestant would say the bibles authoritative because its Gods Word.”
TW
“Yes, it is sad that more Christian don’t have more interest in there bible, where it came from, etc. I believe, it is powerful to have that knowledge.”
Joe T
“As far as the reasons for not believing in God expressed in chapter seven, it started me thinking about what the detractors used for their reasons in the rest of the book up to now. And that makes me wonder if, to some extent, the problem of getting people to accept God by talking to them is unsolvable. I’m not sure that people say to themselves “I want to believe in God but…” Maybe they simply don’t believe, and when pressured come up with reasons. It seems to me that the real problem is the inability of people to believe in the supernatural except as a fairy tale or such. No one convinced me to accept Jesus as my personal savior. For some reason I just did. I think it is a faith/belief thing (at least with me). This does not in any way detract from theology or apologetics. I’m just not sure that they do much outside the belief. You will note that none of my statements are very strong, reflecting my own uncertainty about what I said.”
Phew!!!
July 10th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Nice job again Perry,
I noticed you left out some really great quotes from that other guy named…uh…uh…hmm…Perry?
July 10th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Yeah…well. Felt a little uncomfortable putting my own comments in.
July 10th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
A Public Service
I was talking to my son who had a great retreat at Mt. Gilead ( thanks P. Todd!) and I asked him if he was interested in reading The Reason for God. He said “ Oh no..thats for smart people”. I was taken aback at first then I realized what a professor at college said a long time ago…words have power.
The word “Reason” has many connotations. For some, its like saying “Calculus”..its for brainy people.
So how do we reach the myriad of personalities God has created?
Some are reached through Music. Most young people would not be caught dead with a Jars of Clay , NewsBoys , or a Casting Crowns CD. I found this out as I took my son to JoshuaFest in Quincy the past 2 years. Certain Christian groups are cool.
So…
If your target youth likes the skater lifestyle….Manefest , Thousand Foot Kructh , Switchfoot
If they like Hip Hop…. Grits, Toby Mac , TBone
If they like the “Scream-Os”- Disciple, Red
If they are more Dylanesque……Telecast, Phil Wickham
Raggae…Christafari
If they like grunge ( like Nirvana )…Family Force 5
Download a CD on iTunes and “GIVE” it to them. You will be amazed on the return on $10.
blessings
July 10th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Correction…MANAfest..he is a young man who has a wonderful ministry to youths who come from broken families. He reaches them !
July 10th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
On the Lord’s healing… scripture tell us, to annoint with oil, the laying of hands and prayer. The rest is in the Lords hands and any thing other than that, is none of our business, it is HIS BUSINESS, that is what He does. (except to keep praying for them) I have seen and heard mamy times pastors, verifying a healing, etc. even to say it was a miracle. Then these people find out they were not healed, they are devastated and mamy of them lose there faith. There, I think, is where the real danger lies. One must be very careful and pray for discernment from the Holy Spirit, when engaging in these healing crusades.
On miracles…. oh my!!!!!!! I could really take up a lot of your time on that one. Some I could share with you and you would not have any trouble with. Others, I would not even try to share with you, as you would say…oh yeah???? But, know this my dear friends in Christ, that our Lord is doing miracles all the time. When you have been around long enough, you will look back and see them in your life and in your dear ones, beleive me!!!! Definition for miracle: a supernatural event. They are still happening. PRAISE HIM FOR THAT!!!!!!
Blessings…
July 10th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Preach it TW!!!!!
July 10th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Reason and Revelation…Is there a bridge between the two?
Kierkegaard does…next chapter….
July 11th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Addendum to Blogging Rule#1
I heard something while listening to interpreting scriptures by a hermeneutics prof that applies to rule #1 for blogging. It is very interesting and consolidates many of the impressions we already have about communication. I don’t think it is too heady and definetly makes reading thoughts clearer.
3 levels of Meaning
ex. Jesus walked on Water
level 1 meaning. The clear fact. Jesus was walking on water.
level 2 The interpretation of the fact . Jesus walked on water to show his supremacy over the elements. or Jesus walked on water as opposed to swimming to instill faith on the disciples etc. level 2 interpretations can vary but the recipient grasps some deeper meaning from the fact.
level 3 The writer of this gospel statement is trying to manipulate the reader . He is creating a myth to make Jesus more than a man etc. In level 3 , the recipient of the fact turns the statement on the writer or talker and psycho analyzes why it is said.
Funny example
Husband and wife are are watching Fox News. The blonde Megan Kelly appears. The husband says “ She is smart and Beautiful”
The wife will analyze his statement in one of 3 ways…
level 1. The fact. She is smart and beautiful to the Husband.
level 2. Those pigs at Fox only hire beautiful women. Of course they hire beautiful women who are smart, they want to make money and compete with CNN. Many interpretations are possible here of why she is smart and beautiful.
level 3..And this is where the recipient ( the wife ) turns the statement on the deliverer ( husband) . Why did you say that? Are you implying that I am not attractive and you are saying that to get me to look better? Are you attracted to Blondes dear? Are you saying that only beautiful blondes get your attention?
As you can see. The Interpretation at level 2 can be healthy. Level 3 , where the recipient turns the tables on the deliverer is where conflict is most likely to occur.
July 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
So you’re saying I misinterpret things a lot?
Why would you say that?
That’s really mean.
July 11th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
lol at Chris. that was poetry
July 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Ursus O… “Teach it TW” That I will be doing, Lord willing.
Blessings…
July 11th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
I thought the quote Keller gave of the atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel was very enlightening.
“I want atheism to be true…It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God: I don’t want the universe to be like that…”
I think that every unbeliever either thinks the way Nagel thinks, wants to create God in their own image or is just plain indifferent. But all of them seem to be in a place impossible to reach with the gospel. Their minds are made up and they’re not moving an inch.
It’s hard for me to remember what it was like to be an unbeliever. That was 25 years ago. But I do remember the events that lead up to my conversion, and what’s interesting to me is that a Jehovah’s Witness was working on me at the same time as the man God ultimately used to bring me to salvation. The interesting thing was that the JW (whose name was Dal) couldn’t get anywhere with me no matter how much evidence to the existence of God he gave. The Christian, on the other hand, (whose name was Bill) didn’t really have to do much except reap the harvest. He befriended me, shared some of the same evidences as Dal, gave me the gospel, and about a month or so later I was saved.
The point I’m trying to make is that no matter how much evidence Dal brought forth to convince me that God was real I was unable to budge and he was simply powerless to convince me. There were no lights being turned on in my spirit when he spoke. It’s as if he was talking to a dead man. Yet along comes Bill, around the same time as Dal, giving me some of the same evidences to God’s existence, and the lights came on. I budged! In fact I did more than budge! I came to life! I was dead at one point and alive the next! GOD DID SOMETHING! He flipped the switch! He’s the one who convinced me!
No one, no matter how smart they are, will ever be able to convince a Thomas Nagel or a Perry McKinnon or anyone else for that matter that God is real and that Jesus died for their sins. Yet if God so chooses to open the eyes of a deep thinker like Thomas Nagel He can use the simplest of saints to do it. No amount of knowledge or intellectual prowess will ever be enough to open the eyes of the blind. We are DEAD and only God can make us alive.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44, ESV)
“And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”” (John 6:65, ESV)
So don’t be intimidated by the so-called intellectuals of our day thinking there’s no way you could be the one to lead one of them to Christ. And don’t feel inadequate because you don’t know as much as a Timothy Keller or even a Todd Johnson. Unless you really feel lead, don’t spend all your time striving to learn all the arguments we are reading about. KNOW YOUR BIBLE! God will take care of the hard stuff.
Be encouraged!
July 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Perry… One of my very favorites scriptureS is: ISA 55:11 “SO SHALL MY WORD BE THAT GOETH FORTH OUT OF MY MOUTH: IT SHALL NOT RETURN UNTO ME VOID, BUT IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT.” I love this scripture, and many times when just talking to someone, I think,”"YOUR WORD WILL NOT COME BACK VOID”"
And, thank you for sharing about, “not spending all our time, etc.” Some of us, are intimidated, as many of us have NEVER even read a book on apologetics, etc. Sooooooooooo, I will continue to read my bible, Spurgeon, Taylor, Billy Graham, etc. And pray the next chp. will not be to hard to understand.
That is what happen, when your friend Bill shared the Lord with you. Hey, you didn’t have a chance…
Thanks again..
Blessings…
July 11th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
I love that verse also! Glad you were encouraged TW, and thank you for say so.
July 11th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Another Scripture to Perry’s testimony
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek”
And “But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.”
Im with Perry. share the good news… doesn’t matter how “intelligent” you are. The Gospel with the empowering of the Holy Spirit is what saves sinners… not people with all the answers. In fact, If we do talk to much “big talk” while sharing the gospel it might seem to those around us that we actually did have something to do with a sinners conversion. This is not a good thing.
Be a good clay pot. Share the gospel and be the love of Christ. If He is pleased to use you He will.
Grace
July 12th, 2008 at 9:20 am
BeWitched
Ken,Perry,TW,Mike- I think its great that we are all on the same page that there are limits to a rational approach. And that if only smart people could share the Gospel, then it would definitely be a small church.
However..
I think there is an “at risk” group on college campuses. Most of Keller’s list of arguments against belief in God are widely circulated by Professors. College by its nature is operating on the intellectual and rational level of information. I thank God that there are those like Keller that are equipping young people to understand the arguments and know there is a reasonable defense of the Gospel. I wish I had read this book in college. It might have saved me 10 years in the wilderness.
Hitchens, Dennett, Dawkins and Harris routinely debate on college campuses. I would hope that those debating these men understand the objections and provide answers.I would pray that these men are “Heady” and also full of the Spirit. I thank God for men like Dinesh di’Souza who has risen to the occasion to contend for the Faith.
Plus, scripture addresses “heresy”. The epistle of 1 John rebukes the Gnostic approach to Christ. In Galatians,St. Paul addresses the fall back to works and a departure from Grace. As Paul says…Oh foolish Galatians…Who has bewitched you?…..
peace…out
July 12th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Just Heard Tony Snow died ( 53 ). He served the President well and was a Christian man. He will be missed.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:28 am
God made a Timothy Keller as well as a Perry McKinnon. But let’s not ever think that either of them has any reason to glory in their ability as if they have anything whatsoever to do with salvation. And let’s never think that God needs anyone’s intellect to save sinners. God alone gets the glory.
“What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?” (1 Corinthians 4:7, ESV)
No one is saved through persuasive arguments. No one! What Tim Keller does, I believe, is more for our benefit than for the lost. God uses his gifting to help bolster our faith and help us when we have doubts. So I agree with the belief that reading his stuff can help strengthen the faith of the college student who is doubting. But that same college student should never think that in order to win an intellectual to Christ they must memorize all the philosophical arguments for Christianity. As I said before, know your Bible. Since creation it has been the Word of God through the working of the Holy Spirit that has been God’s chosen method of reaching the lost.
“And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.” (1 Corinthians 2:13, ESV)
“For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:12, ESV)
“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12, ESV)
July 12th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
AMEN TO THAT PERRY!!! Also, love that scripture Hebs 4:12. Put that together with ISA 55:11 when sharing many times. Hey… don’t we LOVE THEM ALL!!! It saddened my heart, about Tony Snow. A beautiful Christian and a lovely man.
Blessings…
Hey, where is Joe T, Donnie, Lori, and some of you others? On vacation? Missing you…..
July 12th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I miss em too, all of those guys!:(
July 12th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Perry,
Spot on. It’s not by us, or our knowledge.
When I first wrestled with the issue of free will vs. predestination, one place I hit a hitch was this:
If God predetermines who is going to heaven, what is the point of evangelism?
The answer I finally came to was this:
I don’t know. But He says He predestines, and He also commands us to share the good news. So share I must.
In the same way, it’s not by us, or by our wisdom that the lost get saved. But we still must do everything we can to have good answers to their questions.
July 12th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I miss you guys too and have been lurking, too dazzled to comment.
I’ve been thinking about what you’re saying the last comments; Is there really a need for apologetics since it’s the Spirit that gives life and the gospel that has power. I too, think we get way too hung up on logic and reason in evangelism. After all, Romans tells us that every man is born with a consicience and creation, attesting to a God. So it seems our job is not so much to convince folks that there is a God, but to tell them who He is and what He’s done on their behalf to save them. (If we’re honest about who He is in the first place, they’ll see they need a Saviour)
“The fool says in his heart, there is no God”. A man becomes a fool by supressing the truth in unrighteousness, or we become agnostic, then athiest by being blinded by our sin. Thessalonians talks about God sending a strong delusion to those who refuse to beleive the truth and so be saved. John MacArthur says “No one rejects God because of lack of evidence, but because of His intimidation on their sinful lives.” Should we spend our time arguing with people who have come to this place? This is not a rhetorical question, I honestly don’t know.
I agree with Perry that the points made in this book build my own faith, the areas that I wonder about, but I don’t picture unbelievers listening to this sort of philosophy and becoming convinced. They may not need so much to be convinced, but conficted, their souls exposed, so they can flee to the Cross.
July 12th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
1Pe 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always {being} ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
Apologetics is to defend or give a reason for our faith and were called as Christians to always be ready to do that. I think the key is not to get caught up in trying to win every argument but focus on Jesus and the cross. We also always must do this with gentelness and respect knowing that apart from God’s Grace we all were once there.
Rom 10:13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
Rom 10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
Rom 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Amen TW, Chris, Michele and Tom! Doesn’t His Word give us a awesome and glorious peace! As Tom and I were talking about Friday the Bible is a solid trustworthy foundation under our feet. We will never go wrong while we put our trust in what God has revealed to us in His wonderful Word.
Chris and Michele - God doesn’t need our help in evangelism but He wants us to be involved in the Family business. And you know what; I want to be involved also. I remember my son asking me one time if he could help me while I did some repairs on my truck. I really didn’t need his help. In fact, it took longer to do the job with his help then without. But he was so blessed by the experience. He was so excited to be working with Dad and I was glad to give him that joy.
I think all this evangelism stuff is for our sake. He’s preparing us for heaven. We’re not going to be playing harps up there. He’s got something important for us to do there and everything He calls us to do here is somehow related to what we will be doing there. Heaven will be a busy place.
I get so excited when I’m involved in His work! It’s such a joy!
July 12th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Mike - Sorry, I forgot to mention your post as well. Great stuff Bro!
July 12th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Tom - Just a note of clarification: I’m not discounting apologetics. I just want us to spend most of our time looking inside and not outside the Bible for the answers we need. I just want us to be smart in the Word more than smart in philosophy. I just want us to trust the Holy Spirit and not our intellects.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:33 am
Perry said “Mike - Sorry, I forgot to mention your post as well. Great stuff Bro!”
You capitalized Bro in reference to me. BLASPHEMY! HERETIC! RECANT!
Grace
July 13th, 2008 at 5:49 am
Absolutely Perry
The point I was hoping to make was that apologetics nowadays is looked on as a specialty study that is for a chosen few. But were all called to be ready and do apologetics (defend, reason) and of course we must start out with the bible and we need to know that first. Now for clarification I’m not saying God hasn’t chosen men to make this their main field of study so we may glean off of them. But it seemed that maybe it was being looked at as a special study instead of something were all called to be apart of.
Now a question: Can God save anyone apart from the Gospel being preached?
Now laying aside the fact that God can do whatever He wanted He used the cross which is the Gospel that we preach .Jesus prayed in the garden Mat 26:39 “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” Clearly if there was any other possible way that we could be saved then the Father would have never sent Jesus to the cross.
My point being that God ordained the ends (salvation through Jesus alone) as well as the means (Him graciously allowing us to preach and be a part of His purposes) of that salvation.
1Pe 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to {the} {will of} God.
Now after 8 chapters I think I’m finally seeing what Keller’s trying to do with this book. He’s trying , I believe to follow God’s and Paul’s pattern of reasoning: in Isa 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. And Paul’s pattern: Act 17:2 and according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, Act 18:19 they came to Ephesus, and he left them there. Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. Keller’s trying to reason with them by stripping away peoples false idea’s and preconceived notions about Jesus so that he can preach the real Jesus to them. And by that, through the power of the Holy Spirit they might be saved.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Perry..et al-God made a Timothy Keller as well as a Perry McKinnon. But let’s not ever think that either of them has any reason to glory in their ability as if they have anything whatsoever to do with salvation. And let’s never think that God needs anyone’s intellect to save sinners. God alone gets the glory.
I hope you did not think ( level 3 ) that I was implying it because I did not nor have not. Nor was I implying that persuasive arguments save sinners. Let’s be clear..God gave us a mind and emotions. Nobody is stating that any man should get any glory. But thru out Church History men, “filled with the Spirit” have risen to address challenges to the faith. I hope we never get overly pious in that we can just throw scripture verses at people and that all is well on my part.
Perry-No one is saved through persuasive arguments. No one!
Not so fast cowboy. There have been those, Chuck Colson, the most famous I can think of off hand, that have been saved after reading C.S. Lewis and Augustine’s City of God. How can you limit God? God , through his spirit can use anything! I once illustrated for an article about how Japanese listeners of Bach are coming to Jesus. They are moved by the spirit in the music that leads to Christ. Also, Paul tried his hand at Philosophy ( I am ALL things to all men ) at Mars Hill. He met them at their game. That is my point. Throwing out scripture at these men would have missed the point ( although the content of scripture was there )
Perry-What Tim Keller does, I believe, is more for our benefit than for the lost
Maybe. Keller states in the introduction that he wants the skeptic and the believer to take a leap of doubt. So his intention, unless he’s crazy, is clear.
I hope I do not come off contentious…but thank God for the Luthers and the Kellers who step up to the plate. Again..I have stated there are other methods that have worked but Kellers book is for a specific audience that are shaken and influenced by the likes of Hitchens.
ad fontus
July 13th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Great to meet you Michelle and your whole posse! Great to finally meet the infamous Perry! I gotta get with you at some point big guy!
Also, thanks to Pastor Todd for letting an emerging Pastor take over the reins at CrossRoads. Now I know that Jesus is not Lord and Savior but my Hero! arghhh ;v)
Like I was telling you Perry, it would be a boring blog if we all just sang to the choir. It is my job to shake it up a bit….within reason
( pun intended )
chiao
July 13th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Michelle-
I forgot. Attached is the debate between Hitchens and Di’Souza
http://www.isi.org/lectures/flvplayer/lect ureplayer.aspx?file=v000187_cicero_102207.flv
ps. a little aside, Hithens is reported to be an alcoholic. He is drinking beer during the debate
July 13th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Frank – I’m going to put all my cards on the table for you so that there is no mistaking what I am saying and the motive behind my posts. This is my heart Frank and I believe strongly that God is the one who has worked this into me. There are many who have joined this blog and many more who we know outside this blog who feel intimidated by all the big words and deep philosophical notions. In fact, they make up the majority of our brothers and sisters. With all my heart, I want them to know that God can use them mightily without being an expert or even a novice on this stuff. I want them to focus first and foremost on reading and knowing their Bibles, and I want them to trust the Word above and beyond any man, method or argument. I want them to understand that the power of the Holy Spirit is at their disposal no less than a Tim Keller.
I understand where you’re coming from Frank and I know your intentions are good. I think you and I probably come from opposite ends of the spectrum. I am more Calvinist and you are probably more Armenian. I’m sure you and I could have some great discussions. But this is not the place for it. Others need to join in and be able to contribute. I get convicted and feel like I’m monopolizing the blog with my side issues. The Lord has made it very clear to me: If I’m going to post something here make sure it will edify and encourage EVERYONE. I really don’t want to stir things up. I want to stir hearts.
It was nice finally meet you today. Let’s hang out sometime.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Frank, it was so good to meet you as well. Your father-in-law is pretty adorable, by the way.
I do agree that reason and argument may be useful for the true seeker, but not for the fool. God does use different things to lead a man back to Himself, and it may not always be a need to be forgiven; Think of the prodigal son. It says “there was a famine in the land and he began to be hungry.” However, we must believe the gospel to be saved. I’m having a hard time with the Japanese and Bach story; Again, I can understand the stirring “Beauty” puts in a soul, (to be discussed next chapter) but certainly not an understanding of God, just a longing for Him.
Thank you for the link, Frank, and as soon as I can I’ll watch it. Again, good to meet you. It was a fun Sunday, connecting with the Book-Club-Homies, you and Perry. Pastor Todd, this is a cool thing you’re doing here, giving us a way to inner-act, listen, discuss, argue a bit, forgive, humble ourselves. That’s how we grow and it can be hard to find ways to do this in such a big church. I do think we should have a potluck at the end of the book. I’ll organize it if everyone wants to do it.
July 13th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Chris #58 “If God predetermines who is going to heaven, what is the point of evengelism.” Boy, did you give me food for thought!!! Of Course God is sovereign, knowing who and who will not go to heaven, but man has a free will. Salvation was bought for us “”ALL”" but not all will choose to partake of it. “God so loved The World, that He gave His only begotten son, that Whosoever Believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.” Soooo Jesus died for “”ALL”". If there was no free will involved, evangelism would be foolish, and all through the Bible, we do have a choice.
Just my own view, but hope it helps clear things a little.
Hey…. JOE T !!! It was great putting a face with the name and there you were sitting right behind me at church…:) So there, you guys, you weren’t the only ones to meet today. I get the last laugh.
Yes, the potluck sounds great. I’ll help too.
Michele… The Japanese & Bauch story. Have you ever heard of Andrea Bocelli, the blind opera singer? When he sings, it moves your spirit like no other and many time makes you cry. Like when you are singing worship songs at church and cry. I think that is what Ursus O point was.
Blessings…
July 13th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Chris #58 “If God predetermines who is going to heaven, what is the point of evengelism.” Boy, did you give me food for thought!!! Of Course God is sovereign, knowing who and who will not go to heaven, but man has a free will. Salvation was bought for us “”ALL”" but not all will choose to partake of it. “God so loved The World, that He gave His only begotten son, that Whosoever Believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.” Soooo Jesus died for “”ALL”". If there was no free will involved, evangelism would be foolish, and all through the Bible, we do have a choice.
Just my own view, but hope it helps clear things a little.
Hey…. JOE T !!! It was great putting a face with the name and there you were sitting right behind me at church…:) So there, you guys, you weren’t the only ones to meet today. I get the last laugh.
Yes, the potluck sounds great. I’ll help too.
Michele… The Japanese & Bauch story. Have you ever heard of Andrea Bocelli, the blind opera singer? When he sings, it moves your spirit like no other and many time makes you cry. Like when you are singing worship songs at church and cry. I