CHAPTER SIX: Science Has Disproved Christianity
June 23rd, 30e by Todd Johnson
This past week was excellent here in the book club. Record-setting comments including some really great thoughts, some plain hilarious, and others just in good fun. I think we’re all getting to know each other better and feeling comfortable to speak our minds and accept the minds of others. Who would have thought that so much personality and comedy would show up in the chapter on hell?! Go figure.
So now that we all know what orthopraxy is (thanks to Franco), not to mention monergism and synergism (Bless you Tom), let’s move on now to chapter six. This week will appeal to the scientific mind.
There is a lot of talk these days of the supposed gap that exists between faith and science, but is there really such a gap? Can one be both scientific and spiritual at the same time? Is there room for any kind of evolutionary talk among Christians (micro; macro; theistic)? And are miracles of the Bible the ‘deal breaker’ they appear to be for some that want to believe in God but “see” no evidence for His existence and/or involvement in life in this world?
I imagine there will be a lot to discuss here. Once again I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the chapter and the subject.
Todd
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About Todd
Name: Todd Johnson
Location: Grass Valley, CA
Contact: todd@crossroadslive.com
About: Todd is the husband of Sharon, the father of Morgan, Caleb, Makenzie & Claire, and a pastor at Crossroads Church. He considers each of these roles the greatest of privileges.
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June 23rd, 2008 at 9:09 pm
“Atheism is science’s natural ally. Atheism is the philosophy, both moral and ethical, most perfectly suited for a scientific civilization. If we work for the American Atheists today, Atheism will be ready to fill the void of Christianity’s demise when science and evolution triumph. Without a doubt humans and civilization are in sore need of the intellectual cleanness and mental health of atheism.”
“Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing!”
(Bozarth, G. Richard, “The Meaning of Evolution,” American Atheist)
This was a very disappointing chapter for me and not just because I disagree with his interpertation of Genesis 1 & 2.
But because I don’t think christians know whats at stake when were talking about the creation account and God’s word describing it. I posted that quote from american atheist above because the atheists seem to know whats at stake.Please let me explain.
If we believe in evolution then we have death before sin.I’ve heard the argument “well God was talking about spiritual death we’d suffer” thus trying to justify physical death before Adam and Eve.NONSENSE, God in the creation account after each creative act saw that it was GOOD.If there was physical death before Adam and Eve then God saw all this physical death while all these millions of creatures were evolving and dieing evolving and dieing and He looked apon it and said it is Good?
Also in Exodus 20:11 God said He made everything in six days and rested on the seventh thus establishing the sabbath.
Then theres Jesus in Mark 10:6 were He says “FROM THE BEGINNING He made them Male and Female”.
I know that technically this is a secondary issue and this doesn’t pertain to salvation. But I think the underlined compromise in the church on this issue has been one of the reasons that theres a lack of trust and authority for the bible we hold in our hands.We can’t be intimidated by science(especially an unproven theory) instead we need to stand on the Truth of Gods word and the creation account thats main and plain in the scriptures.
God Bless
June 24th, 2008 at 6:12 am
In response to Keller’s remark on page 94: “For the record I think God guided some kind of process of natural selection,…..”, I believe that he is not just a poor shepherd who allowed his flock to wander, but a shepherd who wandered off with his flock. Where in the bible did he get any evidence for that conclusion? I think he got it outside the bible. So do we now change a “living bible” to mean whatever is convenient for us at a given time? Do we become billions of earless voices crying in the wilderness, all of us shouting out what we think and none of us understanding anyone else? A megababel?
I believe the bible says what it says, even if I don’t always understand, not a “living document” that we change to be whatever is convenient. The same attack is going on with our constitution, but that is another issue for another venue.
Another quote, from page 95: “It is a warning not to think that only we modern, scientific people have to struggle with the idea of the miraculous, while more primitive people did not.” Does he really think that when scholars, 2000 years from now look back on us they will say: “Boy those folks in 2008 had cutting age technology that is still the standard for today.”? More likely they will refer to us as primitive. This is what I see as another example of collective arrogance. “We modern, scientific people” know all there is to know and therefore can “adjust Christianity” to “modernize” it.
Somebody better stop me.
June 24th, 2008 at 9:07 am
I am in full agreement with the previous 2 comments. The idea of the evolution of man being orchestrated by God is ridiculous and contrary to the tenants of the Word. At what instance in the evolutionary process did sin come into being? At what point in that process were any ‘evolved being’ able to think, reason, or have any of the qualities that make us in the ‘image of God’.
Besides that, the theory of evolution is BAD SCIENCE. There is no substantial proof. Of course we heard it in the Truth Project and countless other arguments.
More and more we are seeing science prove the existence of God. We are seeing it in the archeological record as more and more of the bible is proven to be accurate. We see it in the complexity and order of the universe. Its as if God is saying
“Just try to disprove me. My creation speaks forth my praise.”
This of course is not an argument that is won or lost.
This is a worldview problem. This is a Romans 1 problem. If the atheist looks into the microscope his mind, like the fool, says
“There is no God”. The seeker looks into the same microscope and sees God’s name written there.
June 24th, 2008 at 10:19 am
So… how do you guys really feel? Don’t hold back.
I’m not going to make any of my own comments at this time, but I will post a link that might generate some more thought and discussion. The link is to the site of a man named Larry Taylor who used to be the director of Calvary Chapel’s Bible College in Murrieta, as well as pastoring several churches. Follow the link and scroll down to several of the articles he’s written about evolution and science.
http://thewordinfocus.typepad.com/the_word_in_fo cus/science/index.html
June 24th, 2008 at 11:08 am
After reading some of Mr. Taylors articles and I’ll read the rest later. It made me feel sad, but enough about my personnel feelings.I have just a few quick comments.
1.He said “Now that the human genome has been mapped, as have the genomes of many other organisms, the collective evidence from biology, genetics, anthropology, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, molecular biology, geology, paleontology, and archeology is so completely overwhelming that no professional natural scientist anywhere now doubts the validity of Darwinian evolution”. I’ve seen this strategy before start with a bold sopposed factual statement and then let your argument go from there leading anyone who reads further that they’ve missed the boat if they don’t share your “fact”.
The problem with his statement is its not true. We need to remember that everyone comes to the table with presuppositions and is looking at the same data. So the question is what glasses are we looking through when we interperate the data.When looking at genes or DNA we need to remember that the reason we share much of the same language in our DNA is because its God who created the language not because language carried from one life form to the next.
Another quick observation is Mr. Taylor referances his father and says “I inadvertently helped drive a wedge between him and faith by pushing a very narrow gospel, complete with YEC propaganda, on him. My intentions were good – I wanted him to be in heaven – but my zeal was unfortunately not backed with knowledge”. It sounds like he feels partly responsible for his father not accepting the gospel thus making him reevaluate his views.
Lastly he paints the picture of people who don’t believe in evolution as not using their minds and blindly following their faith because they think its a conspiracy against God and the bible. We should all won’t Gods glory but God has given us a mind and calls us to use it. I would suggest Mr. Taylor to try on a new set of glasses.
My God open all are eyes to His truths by the working of His Holy Spirit.
June 24th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Larry Taylor states “my quest for an understanding of a synthesis between natural science and the Bible has been life-long.” This is at the heart of his problem. Whenever man tries to reconcile the world’s ideas with the bible there will most times be a distortion of the truth.
Larry presupposes that it is fact that:
1. Every natural scientist has arrived at the conclusion that evolution is fact. This is a false statement.
2. Evidences of evolution are iron clad (which they are not
as shown in the film ‘Icons of Evolution’ and many other sources.)
But worst of all evolution has crept into virtually every area of thought from law,government,social order etc.
This is very personal for me. My sister and my Mom are attending a church in the area which teaches this. This has led my sister into a belief that the whole world, mankind, and YES! even God is in a state of evolution. The immutable nature of God the creator is under attack.
What have we sunk to Lord? Woe is me.
June 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Science works within laws (the laws of science), I work within laws (sinful nature/God’s law)… See Romans 7:14-25 below.
-How can science explain how the good I set out to do in a day are often thwarted by my sinful nature? Today I will not _____fill in the blank___________ (gossip, steal, lust, etc), yet, I find myself doing that very thing. In summary, a truly honest man understands that he is a slave to sin, and he knows that only the truth will set him free.
Romans 7:14-25. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
June 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Were does Taylor get off putting Psychology in with “making a salad” and “Understanding the chemistry to make aspirin.” I read the little blog he had about “does the bible really solve all our problems?” it made me almost vomit. Figuratively
Im sorry but thats just deceptive. Psychology is the study of human behavior. True… but what he doesn’t say is that Psychology and most psychologists also think that they can cure “human behavior” outside of the bible. Which according to the bible is impossible. The only way to cure mans behavioral issues is doing away with the sin that has him in bondage.
He’s mixing apples and oranges to make a point. Which I say again is intellectualy dishonest. I go to a doctor because doctors fix my BODY. I go to a mechanic because mechanics fix my CAR, I go to a Landscaper to fix my FRONT LAWN. I go to the bible/Jesus/prayer/brothers in Christ to fix my psyche.
I understand that psychologists have their place in solving human behavior issues. But if they are not saved and being directed by the Holy Spirit they are in essence deceiving people away from putting their faith in Jesus for salvation.
Saying by therapy and chemicals you are made “right” not by Jesus.
Am I wrong on this?
June 24th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Amen to that Mike.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
All day I’ve been struggling with what to say here.
I understand what Tom is saying about man being created through the process of evolution. The underlying implication is that generations had to pass as man was developed, so there was death. That contradicts the Biblical statement that death came as a result of sin.
There is an implication of the opposite extreme as well. To believe that it was a literal 6 days means that there is a huge amount of physical evidence on this earth that is misleading. It means that carbon dating is not only inaccurate, but absolutely unreliable. Fossil records and things like dinosaur bones seem to tell a story that is not true.
I can’t buy that. Romans also says that God’s creation is put in place to help us understand something about His nature (Romans 1:19-20). Scientific thought came about primarily because Christians believed in a God who is rational and intelligent.
There is a middle ground I think, and one that involves a fair bit of “I don’t know”.
Here’s a few things that I’m fairly certain of:
- God put two accounts of the creation in Genesis, and they are slightly different.
- Fossil records, carbon dating and geologic evidence all point to an earth that has been here for a very long time.
- The Bible seems purposely mysterious about some things that happened a long time ago - like the fall of Satan.
My conclusion? The story is more complicated than either side thinks, and there’s some aspect of it that God has deliberately left vague.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Mike - one of the guys that stops in here to comment is a psychologist. Maybe he can address your concerns with psychology.
Chris - you bring up valid points and braved a “lions’ den” — These guys have come out swinging (in the spirit of blogging rule #1 of course).
This could prove to be a helpful discussion for all of us.
June 24th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Really busy today…but I think Chris and I will be on the same side on this one.
Quickly, I had a run in ( not planned ) with Ken Ham of Back to Genesis way back when at an ECPA convention. It got very heated. He was very rabid about ” the just shall live by an absolute literal interpretation of Genesis” or you are not really saved and are deceived.
I actually prefer going back to talking about Hell than speaking and arguing this topic as it is the main arena of debate today. Both sides are very passionate about their positions.
grace
June 24th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Frank shared that Ken Ham said,
” the just shall live by an absolute literal interpretation of Genesis” or you are not really saved and are deceived.”
Frank, for the record… regarding Ken Ham, I agree with YOU.
For the record, where does the Bible say…
“For God so loved the World that He gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life….of course, unless he struggles with the creation / evolution thing…then he goes to Hell.” ???
I am trying to keep perspective and stay in the ballpark with ideas based on Blogging Rule #1.
(Secretly loving this though…)
Perry- Aren’t you going to stir the pot?…Todd did.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
I guess what bothers me most about the evolution/intelligent design debate is that God is ignored by evolutionists. It isn’t enough to say they don’t find anything to show that God exists but He is literally left out of the equation. When they look for answers to questions, it is always someplace other than the bible. Why is that? While evolution is taught in our schools, no intelligent design is allowed. Why is that? I can’t get past the fact that one man 149 years ago started something that has ever since been polarizing people. It is almost like a new religion. Is Darwin the God-elect, only holding off on the corination until those stubborn, superstitious fundamentalist Christians are sufficiently marginalized? Now that I look at what my fingers just typed, I’m not sure it is just kidding. Better stop before I say something radical.
As for the six days debate, how important is it if some do not believe in it literally? A day on Pluto (the planet not the cartoon dog) is the same as 248 days on earth. I wonder what a day is where God is. The difference between the number of stars old time and modern scientists count (1025 and 70 sextillion) is much more than the difference between six days and the 5 billion years in debate. This is a far different thing than saying that we came from goo.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
NRB , a new direct TV station, has a great program about the legacy of Darwin tonight.
Concerning the good pastor Taylor, I was a little put off that he did not tackle the intelligent Design perspective. Because , in a way , his view is not fully respected by the Darwinists or the Intelligent Design theorists, esp. at Discovery Institute. His view is actually a gap theory.
Darwinists will tell you, there is no designer, there is no purpose, there is no free will , it is ultimately chance and any purpose we ascribe to Life is purely our invention. This view is inescapable in light of natural selection and the theory as it is currently proposed.
The result of this as Jesus said ” You shall know them by their fruit is…
Eugenics, Situational Ethics, Relativism , Existentialism , Marxism , Freudianism , infanticide and on and on.
Anyone who has read Darwin under Trial comes away with the impression that a great legal mind is questioning the assumptions of Darwin. Philip Johnson is my hero , all five foot four inches of him, and he does not back down from a good debate. See him debate on YouTube.
blessings
June 24th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Good point on the goo Joe. Maybe we need to clarify our positions as to not misunderstand each other.
I’ll start briefly.
1.It sounds like we all agree that this is a secondary issue and not a issue of salvation.
2.Were talking about macro evolution not micro.
3. Joe brings up a good point about time and God so maybe we can set that aside.
That leads to my main issue with evolution and the point of contention.
Question:
1. Death before sin?
2.God said it was good after creation if there was death was that good?
3. No transitional forms, if every life form on earth evolved over millions of years surely the fossil record would be littered with transitional forms?
Chris does bring up some valid points”- Fossil records, carbon dating and geologic evidence all point to an earth that has been here for a very long time”.
Like I said before their all looking at the same data what glasses are they looking through.
As for carbon dating,geological evidence could they be inaccurate.I know that when mount st. helens erupted it caused canyons to be carved out in minutes that they said took millions of years for the same.
I’m no scientist but I know that we and scientists are fallable and are methods can be flawed and inaccurate. I think and I say this with all do respect that evolution is like the Morman church theres no hard evidence for belief in it and the longer it stays around the more people think it has legitimacy.
My humble opinion
June 24th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
I was wandering through some Ray Stedman sermons and came across this quote about evolution. Classic.
‘Ever since Darwin every monkey in the zoo has been asking himself, “Am I my keeper’s brother?” That accounts, of course, for the discouraged look on their faces.’
June 24th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Ken - I’m enjoying the discussion too much to comment at this time. I’m also trying to understand the mind of Larry Taylor. I’m still reading his blog to see how his belief in Theistic Evolution has affected the rest of his theology. It’s not necessarily his scientific interpretations that I’m interested in but his heart and his philosophy of ministry. This is the first time I’ve ever read the views of a Theistic Evolutionist and I want to be fair and avoid having a knee jerk reaction. Taylor and Keller are brothers in Christ and I think I can learn much from them even when I disagree with their thinking on certain topics.
I know this is a discussion on science and the Bible but I’m just not smart enough nor have I done enough research to join the debate. Taylor could run mental circles around me simply because he has spent years studying this stuff. The important thing for me is not the facts and figures he quotes but the results and side effects of his belief in Theistic Evolution. Has belief in these things caused him to love God more or less? Is Theistic Evolution edifying or damaging to the heart and mind? What would happen if the Church as a whole started teaching these things? And most important, if Theistic Evolution were true, what would it say to us about the nature and personality of God?
I’ll leave the facts and figures to Tom on this topic and glean from his research. Thanks Tom.
Chris – I’m gonna start calling you the “Middle Ground Extremist”.
Todd – You might have more insight into Larry Taylor than his blog reveals. Care to share?
June 25th, 2008 at 5:20 am
I was brushing up on my evolution at a berkeley website and found this on the definition of biological evolution:
The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.
Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we’re all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales.
Gives a hole new meaning to save the whales.
Heres the website
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIntro.shtml
June 25th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Tom. your #16 is obviously a supernatural plagiarism. The very words my feeble mind could not force through my wrinkled lips. I think there should be a second rule on this blog, to wit: Everyone knows that senility is far more prevalent in homogooians (my only word of latin) past the age of seventy than in the population as a whole; therefore, in accordance with political correctness requirements, any utterances from a septuagenarian (even if uttered through the lips of a younger person) should be given double weight. hehhehheh
Chris, your #17 proves the necessity of rule #2. I think I know that monkey.
Todd, someone is not keeping up on spelling. I’m too old to spell correctly, but I recognize it in others. How many miles can I get out of this age thing?
June 25th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I’m sorry I know I’ve posted alot but I think this is a crucial issue for the Church. I’ll try to make this my last post for a while.
I want to raise the point about Gods purpose and His glory.
Since theres arguements on either side and tons of data to try to interpret.
If we look at the bible and God’s word I see a God of purpose for His glory.
1.He made us for the purpose of fellowshipping and worshipping Him.
2.He made the stars in the sky and the planets for a purpose.
3.He made the animals and the birds of the air for a purpose.
In evolution everything came about by purposeless causes and according to theistic evolution God guided and used this method to make everything to me this shows a God of disorder and purposelessness.
God said He made man in the likeness of himself not in the likeness of animals.
God made the earth and everything in it to glorify Him and I don’t think the theory of evolution accomplish’s that purpose.
June 25th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Joe T Said:
“Chris, your #17 proves the necessity of rule #2. I think I know that monkey.”
—
In another thread, Chris said:
“Blogging Rule #2
If the commenter is named Perry, ignore Rule #1.”
—
I’m assuming this means that we agree that Perry is a monkey?
(This comment brought to you by the Middle Ground Extremist Dufus)
June 25th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Chris, there is no way I am going to pile onto Perry. Incidentally, my first reaction to your #17 was “Well I’ll be a monkeys uncle.” But wait, that would mean we came before the monkeys. Am I on to something here? Are we face to face with The Planet of the Apes? Seriously, I have been upset about this chapter, but while lying awake at oh dark thirty this morning I realized that HE is beside me. If I am right or wrong, HE is beside me. I have nothing to be upset about. Hallelujah.
June 25th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I should follow up that last comment with a couple of other things I wanted to say:
1 - Tom, I hope you don’t actually make that your last post for a while. The things you’ve said have been some of the most insightful in the discussion.
2 - Perry, the approach of looking beyond Taylor’s ideas to how it affects his other theology is just brilliant. I’m looking forward to hearing your conclusion on that matter.
3 - Frank, what you said about the fruits of evolution theory being eugenics, situational ethics, etc I think is a very good point.
I’m very much enjoying the discussion here.
June 25th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Let’s toss all discussion of evolution aside for the moment. We all believe in Creation, that goes without saying here. None of us believe we are descended from apes or goo. What is in question here is the Creative process involving days, aeons, “without form and void”, dinosaurs, etc. etc.?
I guess I’m interested in what you guys think of a “young earth” vs an “old earth”?
Perry - I’ve never met Larry Taylor. He was deeply respected when he ran the Bible College for Chuck. From what I can remember, there came a day when they shared some differences and he moved along. He still looks at those years at the college as his best and favorite. He is extremely bright and again, well-respected.
And I don’t believe that his love, devotion, service to Jesus has lessened over the years with his “changing” beliefs concerning science and/or Creation… if anything, it has deepened.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:00 am
I’ve seen this strategy before Mr. Johnson starts out with a supposed fact that “None of us believe we are descended from apes or goo”. And if we don’t by in somehow we missed the boat. hehehe
I couldn’t resist.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Tom - Is EVERY fact a “supposed” fact with you? (smile)
Do you really think that just because I’m holding my cards extremely close to my chest on this one that I’m not being straight with you?
Come on people - loosen up a little. (Big smile)
June 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Todd hinted at a few of these things, but it seems like they could be expounded on in case anyone is not familiar with them…
- Days/Eons - Some contend that the word translated “Day” in Genesis 1 (Hebrew “yowm”) can be used more generally to mean something akin to “eons”. Like we would say “Back in my day” to refer not to a single day, but to a period of time.
Of course one issue with this is that it says “and the evening and the morning were the first day”
- “Without form and void” - there is a lot of speculation about what that means. I’ve heard some talk of the darkness being the remnant of a judgment that was cast on to the earth because of Satan’s rebellion. Even that dinosaur bones could be left over remnants of that time.
- Dinosaur bones - they are a huge puzzle, especially if you’re going to take a Young Earth view. There’s no mention of them in the creation account, and any way you slice it, you’ve got to try to figure out where dinosaurs fit in the equation.
I’ll finish there. Was going to state my view on Old vs. Young, but I don’t have the time for it right now. Perry, when I do, I promise to be as far to one side or the other as I possibly can!
June 25th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Ok so no one wants to discuss Psychology. Fine.
Frank (and all those who laughed at Ken Hams quote about taking Genesis “literally”)
What do you suppose we do? If Genesis starts to crumble into typology then whats to stop the book of Romans from crumbling into typology. What about all the words of Jesus? Does everything now become how we perceive it. I understand that the book of Genesis has some hard things in it. A flood covered the whole earth, or they built a tower on the plain of Shinar. All the world had one tongue, or the earth was without form and void. etc. yet what are the alternatives? Why am I even having this debate that the world might be older then 6-10 thousand years old? Because science has found “evidence” contrary to what the bible says.
Do we really trust a system that is flawed by the mere fact that its made up of men? And men who for the most part have completely shunned the God of the bible?
How can we really know that the amount of Carbon 14 on a particular piece of fossilized wood has remained constant?
How can we really know that the geological column was layed down over billions of years of geothermal and meteorological cycles.
How can we really know that Yosemite valley was carved out by a mammoth glacier that took thousands of years to produce?
All these things scientists have told us, written about, and journaled . Yet I cant help but point out my first point. Science is observation…. Observation and trial and error carried out by flawed humans. A friend told me once that science is the most pure form of truth because you have accountability inside the scientific community. Hogwash. True accountability can not come from human beings.. we are to flawed. We take bribes, we lie, we steal, we covet, we murder.
All im saying is that 700 years ago the “scientific” census was that the world was flat. THat has been proven wrong sure… but man! could the scientific community be wrong today? Could we be so far off that it would make our head spin if shown 500 years in the future?
The bible is not wrong. It is truth. And just because some “men” have found some “evidence” that a fossilized piece of wood is 70 million years old doesn’t mean I’m going to change my view of the scriptures. Even the hard parts that might not make sense. Just because the whole world esteems these “men of renown” and their intellect doesnt mean I’m going to.
My big point being this. There are some tough things in the bible. Yet I will believe the bible a thousand times over men. Especially when what man says contradicts the Word of God. Genesis has to be taken literally. Other wise we have reason to reject and change every part of Gods word. Scary.
June 25th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Chris - this is from Job 40
“Behold, Behemoth, [3]
which I made as I made you;
he eats grass like an ox.
16 Behold, his strength in his loins,
and his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 He makes his tail stiff like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are knit together.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like bars of iron.
19 “He is the first of the works [4] of God;
let him who made him bring near his sword!
20 For the mountains yield food for him
where all the wild beasts play.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
in the shelter of the reeds and in the marsh.
22 For his shade the lotus trees cover him;
the willows of the brook surround him.
23 Behold, if the river is turbulent he is not frightened;
he is confident though Jordan rushes against his mouth.
24 Can one take him by his eyes, [5]
or pierce his nose with a snare?
Job 41
41:1 [1] “Can you draw out Leviathan [2] with a fishhook
or press down his tongue with a cord?
2 Can you put a rope in his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he make many pleas to you?
Will he speak to you soft words?
4 Will he make a covenant with you
to take him for your servant forever?
5 Will you play with him as with a bird,
or will you put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 Lay your hands on him;
remember the battle—you will not do it again!
9 [3] Behold, the hope of a man is false;
he is laid low even at the sight of him.
10 No one is so fierce that he dares to stir him up.
Who then is he who can stand before me?
11 Who has first given to me, that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Behemoth and Leviathan. These two creatures are listed in a long list of real creatures. (Read job 38-41.) Including ox, sheep, birds, goats, and donkeys. I cant help but think, especially in the description of Leviathan, that these are Dinosaurs.
As non PC as it sounds… could men have lived side by side with Dinosaurs?
June 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Well, I just spent the last two days reading Larry Taylor’s blob! Excuse me, I meant to say “blog”, or did I? This isn’t a discussion on Larry Taylor so I’m not going to take the time to give a detailed evaluation of his views. Let me just say that after reading most of his posts dating back to June of 2007 I found my concerns to be valid. I still think he has many good ideas to offer and there were many things he wrote that I agree with. But overall reading his stuff was very unedifying. Enough said. Chris – You can catch me Friday morning for the rest of the story.
As to Todd’s question on the issue of time I’m not at all concerned either way. I tend to lean toward the literal view yet willing to accept the evidence for an old earth as well. I think the “Gap Theory” has some validity also. To me it’s all about the nature, personality and glory of God. If God is not diminished then I’m fine either way. But let me say, with the deepest heartfelt conviction, Theistic Evolution diminishes God and the reliability of His Word. Larry and Tim – I love you guys but you’re wrong!
June 25th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Perry said, “I’m not at all concerned either way. I tend to lean toward the literal view yet willing to accept the evidence for an old earth as well.”
— Me too.
Perry said, “To me it’s all about the nature, personality and glory of God. If God is not diminished then I’m fine either way.”
— Me too.
My life continues to be a life of faith seeking understanding. And I accept that there are things that I will never understand until heaven… so walk by faith I will.
(Frank said I look like Yoda, so I might as well sound like him)
June 25th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Young earth versus old earth. Time, to the eternal God is a non sequitur. My wife called to my attention the Jim Cole song, The Offering. A truncated version of the lyrics is:
Man: What’s a million years to you?
God: A second
Man: What’s a million dollars too?
God: A penny
Man: Will you give me a penny?
God Sure, you’ll just have to wait a second.
I am completely lost about this issue, but since no one else will stick his neck out, why not me? Moses was not alive when the creation started, so he must have gotten his information from God. If God said six days to create everything, then it was six days. If I don’t believe that, I don’t believe the bible. So what is a day? As I mentioned before, a day on Pluto is 248 earth days. That shows me that time is relative to us depending on where we might be in the universe. With 70 sextillion heavenly bodies out there (and scientists may still be off by a factor of 10, 1000 or whatever), there could very easily be a place where a day is a billion earth years. This could have been God’s base of operations. All of this is merely an emergency hypothesis trying to respond to Pastor Todd’s sudden change in direction. And it was too late, he has already given it up. Alright then. a day where ever God was when He created the universe was whatever He deemed it to be. Amen
June 26th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Looking back at the comments there is one that was passed over and I think it deserves another look.
It was comment #7 by Mikey McD -
“Science works within laws (the laws of science), I work within laws (sinful nature/God’s law)… See Romans 7:14-25…
-How can science explain how the good I set out to do in a day are often thwarted by my sinful nature? Today I will not _____fill in the blank___________ (gossip, steal, lust, etc), yet, I find myself doing that very thing. In summary, a truly honest man understands that he is a slave to sin, and he knows that only the truth will set him free.”
Great perspective Mikey. For all that science has to offer, it cannot deal with the sin problem. It has no answer for the sin problem. We think we’re getting a handle on life’s greatest mysteries and we cannot get a handle on the human condition that continues to deteriorate. A condition that God in His Son HAS dealt with and delivered us from!!!!
So, for all the “I don’t knows” …. there is one thing we know with certainty — The same God that created the heavens and the earth (in six days
) crushed sin and satan (in six hours).
June 26th, 2008 at 9:59 am
The key to reality is in the Word. If we take the time thoughtfully reading it, many of these questions about science are answered. It’s a matter of perspective - man’s versus God’s. Jesus united the two perspectives in His incarnation. We have access to God’s perspective on science (or any other aspect of life) when we read the Bible. The Word is made alive in us as the indwelling Holy Spirit activates the Truth in our heart, soul and mind allowing us to correctly interpret what we experience.
June 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Joe T… RIGHT ON!!!!!! This topic has been a very deep one for me, but I sure have learned a lot. I have to agree with you, what different does it make??? God did it and the time frame doesn’t matter. And yes, Crabby, we have our bible to learn anything we need to know, and if we have trouble, the Holy Spirit will enlighten our minds, etc. But, if not, I just leave it alone. (Which by the way is hard for me, but I am learning) Todd… LOVED, “God created in six days
and crushed sin and satan in six hours” Will write that down in my bible, thanks!!! 
Blessings…
June 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
TW - I have a hard time leaving things alone, too. Nancy Drew mysteries were my favorite in 5th grade. Lately I’ve been discovering clues to the most tantalizing mysteries as I’ve travelled thru the Word.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Wow…I missed a couple of days and I need to catch up!
I’ve been emailing and debating a pagan friend of mine about the concept of” EVIL”….now back to Genesis. Apologetics is time consuming.
To be perfectly honest friends…I do not know. I have learned not to judge those that differ in their interpretation of Genesis. Taylor alluded to the Augustinian approach in extending grace towards interpretation.
Augustine said something very insightful when he said ” only GOD could have written the Genesis account so simply so that a child to the most highly trained intellectual could glean truth from it.
I have read most of the posts and agree with a whole lot that has been said. However, I have always been a bit gun shy on this issue as I don’t feel qualified to speculate.
I take it very simply. What is the fruit of…..? Fill in the blank. Can you see the wisdom of what Jesus said? You will judge them by their fruit. What clarity! It keeps us from falling in love with ANY theory or Idea that is Man Made.
I go back to CAUSATION , and this was the approach used by Dinesh d’Souza and Philip Johnson in debating atheists concerning evolution.
Now for something for all of you to stone me with…
When it says in scripture ” A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day” …I always translated it as not meaning a “day” is either a 24 hr day OR an actual thousand years but rather..God , the author of TIME is sovereign and can do what he wants.
As a friend told me…God has an IQ off the charts…don’t try to compete because you will Lose.
blessings
June 26th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
ps Todd…U2 is NOT the best band of all time…I humbly submit CHRISTAFARI as the ultimate band to paint to and get scripture sung at you at the same time!
<:~)
June 26th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Frank -
Some things are open to debate (The age of the earth; literal days vs. Eons; Ford vs. Chevy, etc.).
Some things are NOT open to debate (U2 IS the best band of all time).
“Father, forgive Frank… He knows not what he says”
June 26th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
So many great thoughts and ideas have been shared and I have been enlightened, (and mind-boggled), by many of them!
Switching gears a bit, on page 95 Keller talked about being challenged in our beliefs and the concept of the miraculous always needing to be considered when discussing God and creation. I couldn’t agree with this more. (If God chuckles, (does he?), he must chuckle at man and his puny attempts at times to try to understand Him.) I liked when Keller said regarding miracles, “They lead not simply to cognitive belief, but to worship, to awe and wonder.”
I think this is what God wants from me: to understand Him the best I can through His Word, surrender for now what I don’t understand, and worship Him for what he HAS revealed to me. The most important thing, the foundational truths of the Gospel, He has made VERY clear and because of those truths, I should want to worship Him.
This close of the chapter seemed to me actually a bit off track, but I guess it was to calm the reader back down and keep him focusing on the majors and not the minors.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Frank said,
“To be perfectly honest friends…I do not know. I have learned not to judge those that differ in their interpretation of Genesis. Taylor alluded to the Augustinian approach in extending grace towards interpretation”.
And,
“I take it very simply. What is the fruit of…..? Fill in the blank. Can you see the wisdom of what Jesus said? You will judge them by their fruit. What clarity! It keeps us from falling in love with ANY theory or Idea that is Man Made”.
The second quote is the same point I was trying to make in #18and #31, which is, what is the fruit of a particular belief and how does it affect the rest of our theology. The fruit of Theistic Evolution is belief in a God who chose to create man in a confusing and purposeless way. The fruit of Theistic Evolution is doubt in the inspired Word of God as trustworthy and infallible. If God is all powerful then He could have created man in 6 days but chose instead to do it over billions of years. During which time, as Tom so eloquently put it, death reined. Yet the Bible teaches that death came as a result of sin and sin alone. The Word is crystal clear on this. Why would God evolve man over billions of years? What good would come of it? Unless, of course, He wasn’t able to create man in 6 days which would deny God’s omnipotence and create a whole new problem.
Nobody is judging anyone. What is being judged is a particular teaching and we are suppose to judge that, in fact we are exhorted to do so. I read through most of Larry Taylor’s posts over the last year in order to give him a fair hearing and not misunderstand where he is coming from. I love the guy but he is heading down a very bad road theologically. As I stated before, “This isn’t a discussion on Larry Taylor so I’m not going to take the time to give a detailed evaluation of his views”. But let me just give you one quote,
“Do I mean to suggest that a real Christian can support abortion, support same sex marriage, be a liberal Democrat, sprinkle infants, trust in transubstantiation, believe God created the universe billions of years ago via the process of evolution, and doubt that every word of the Bible was dictated by God to human secretaries? Yes, that is precisely what I am suggesting”.
Statements like this are why I’m so adamant about the dangers of Theistic Evolution or any other belief that would diminish God and the reliability of His Word. Once you start down that road it can lead you into all kinds of destructive detours.
Frank, I know you meant well by your statement not to judge, and it’s quite possible I’m misunderstanding you, but I felt the need to answer. I claim blogging rule #1.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Check this out…
http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idU SL256586320080625?feed
June 26th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Ken. your #41 is right on. I was taking notes earlier while reading the chapter and most of them showed great gnashing of teeth on my part. But my last note reads “redeems himself at the end of chapter.”
Pastor Todd, I thought U2 was a high flying spy plane.
Frank, what is a Christafari? Am I behind the curve?
June 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Todd - Thanks for the news story. And since Chris thinks I’m a monkey, this should mean more rights for me too! Ape brothers unite!!!
June 26th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Todd - I saw the news link as well, “Apes and Equal Rights”.
What about marriage laws and apes in Italy with this new law? (Although progressive apes probably tend to want to just cohabitate)
The phrase, “I’ll be a monkey’s uncle!” takes on a whole new meaning.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Perry- I will get back to you..I am currently responding to a pagan friend of mine that believes because I am a Christian that I am in- tolerant, absolutist and self righteous. He believes that because he has seen the Light, that I am evil…..I am in need of prayer cover as he truly believes that I am the one deceived……..
Perry…What are the ESSENTIALS, as Cassandra postulated , to you? What criterion identifies us as Christian?
When I mentioned ” judged”, it was more like I was not going to do the Ken Ham thing and become adversarial. Remember…I am a semi- Erasmian. Erasmus, who is long forgotten, wanted believers to be more Christlike in lieu of being dogmatically theologically correct…..
blessings
ps. Christafari is a Christian band started by a former Biola student. They are awesome..I saw them at Rock of Ages in Calistoga and the spirit was strong!
The song is Valley of Decision..”this no game. people have died in his name, valley of Decision”..Run come and fall, People take heed to his call, Valley of Decision”…Todd …you gotta love these lyrics
checkthis out..better than U2..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjWGKvEQI2U
June 26th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Frank – Once again I’m not judging a person here, I’m judging a teaching. So your question as to what criteria identifies us as Christians is not something I’m trying to address. You were spot on with the Ken Ham comment. I would never question a person’s salvation because they believe in Theistic Evolution which is basically what Ham did. The quote from Larry Taylor was meant to illustrate my point that bad theology can have an adverse effect on the direction we are going and the way we think. The statement I quoted is like saying “let’s see how many unbiblical things can we do and believe and still claim to love Jesus”. That is simply not the way the Word teaches us to think. Bad theology is dangerous and in my experience is usually gets worse once a person starts down that path. Being Christ-like is supremely important but so is good theology and the Word teaches us to strive for both. You really can’t have one without the other.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I just finished time for truth by Os Guinness and one comment he made and what I think Perry is saying is “ideas have consesequences”,”behavior follows beliefs as thunder follows lightning” .
If we say we are christians born again of the Holy Spirit and as Mr. Taylor says support abortion, support same sex marriage, trust in transubstantiation and can still be a genuine christion” WOW Lord help us how for we have fallen.
I guess then Bowing to Baal,Child sacrifice,and sacrificing meat to idols is O.K. to.
God’s word said we will no them by their fruit. We can’t judge the heart only God can do that. But we are to judge their fruit not by mine or our standards but by the standards
set it God’s word.
I would refer you all to listen to Todd’s exellent study last night on James 2
June 26th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Tom - Thank you. That Os Guinness quote is exactly what I’m trying to say.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Ken Ham questioned peoples salvation for not taking Genesis literally? Wow. I feel I might have defended him in ignorance
This issue has nothing to do with salvation. Yet, I agree with Tom and Perry, Idea’s have consequences. Every theology we hold up in our mind as truth affects our thoughts, behaviors, mindsets.
I herd a preacher say once *cough* (Piper) *Cough* that 80-90% of our daily lives is reactionary. That we aren’t focusing mentally on our speech and actions. So he went on to say that Theology takes a big role in how we react. The biggest thing to dominate our minds and hearts will usually come out on impulse.
I’m just scared to take anything metaphorically from any book in the bible unless the text implicitly alludes to a metaphoric interpretation. Even 6 day creation. But in the end… If a brother loves Jesus and is regenerate of the Holy Spirit, then its ok if he’s wrong on a couple things.
JUST KIDDING! Love all you Old earth people!
Grace
June 27th, 2008 at 8:09 am
I just finished time for truth by Os Guinness and one comment he made and what I think Perry is saying is “ideas have consesequences”,”behavior follows beliefs as thunder -Tom
Absolutely! Jesus said you shall judge them by their fruit. Which I dare say is more eloquent than Os Guinness and worth memorizing.
“Bad theology is dangerous and in my experience is usually gets worse once a person starts down that path. Being Christ-like is supremely important but so is good theology and the Word teaches us to strive for both. You really can’t have one without the other.”- Perry
Absolutely! I will open the can of worms though Perry. What do you mean by good theology? Did Frank really mean to say that? Yes. Whitefield and Wesely had different theologies . One was Arminian and the other Calvinistic. Who had the better Theology? What was the fruit of their ministries? Polycarp, Tertullian , Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Erasmus, Calvin , Barth , Neibhur etc. Which one of these men had good theology?
Which is better? The Theology coming out of Reformed Theological Seminary or Dallas Theological Seminary or Golden Gate Theological Seminary? Or maybe no training at all and be moved ” By the Spirit” and come to your own conclusions from the Word? Post Trib versus pre Trib?
Amellinnial versus Mellinnial? Charismatic versus Dispensational?
I would agree with you all that Theology or lack of it has a direct bearing on your actions. And beliefs in these different Theologies will result in a different action.
Thus I go back to the essentials versus the non essentials and appeal to the creeds of the past.
To be fair to our Theistic Evolution brothers, Does it naturally follow that their beliefs leads to men with men and more abortion etc? I would not agree with a previous post that they believe that God was purposeless.
Now to appeal to a man who has great standing at CrossRoads. Spurgeon. In his day the Post Trip - Pre Trib debate was a hot issue. He wrote that he knew men of Faith that he respected who rested in both camps. He said that he refrained from favoring a side as favoritism for one side would cause a Church split and rip the congregation apart. He felt it was his duty to preach Christ Crucified and the Resurrection and let the speculators fight outside the church.
Luther felt that good morals only came after proper doctrine. Erasmus disagreed. He ultimately favored being Christlike in front of good doctrine.
I have met in my 20+ years as a Christian people with ” Good Theology” that I would never trust around my wife and kids.
ad fontus
June 27th, 2008 at 8:11 am
ps.
I am off to take a group of kids to PIXAR ( the Toy Story Animators ) today. So if I do not respond until tomorrow…I am not ducking the salvos……
adios
June 27th, 2008 at 8:39 am
To infinity… AND BEYOND!!!!!
June 27th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Frank,
I’d like to say I always appreciate your insights and comments.
Now a few quick comments on what you brought up.
You mentioned
“Luther felt that good morals only came after proper doctrine. Erasmus disagreed. He ultimately favored being Christlike in front of good doctrine.”
How would we now Christlikeness without good docrrine or better yet how do we know what Christlikeness is without knowing doctrine. We know about God and His ways because of His Word. Were told to renew or mind by the Word. We read the Word to transform our mind that should then result in the transforming of our heart that leads to action. If we start with or heart (emotions,experiances) then try to make our doctrines fit it we run the risk of man made doctrines.
You mentioned
“I have met in my 20+ years as a Christian people with ” Good Theology” that I would never trust around my wife and kids.
I agree I’ve meet them to but is their “good doctrine” merely
head knowledge to them and their really not saved. The work of the Holy Spirit should transform lives. Jesus said many in that day will say Lord,Lord didn’t we prophecy in your name and cast demons out in your name and Jesus said I never new you. Could that be these people?
Lastly you commented that
“To be fair to our Theistic Evolution brothers, Does it naturally follow that their beliefs leads to men with men and more abortion etc? I would not agree with a previous post that they believe that God was purposeless.
My point was not that our Theistic Evolution brothers thought God using this was purposeless but that the evolutionary process itself was purposeless. I was wondering how they reconcile a God of purpose with billions of years of death and destruction before sin.
June 27th, 2008 at 11:09 am
P.S.
Frank hows it going with your friend.
June 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
My brain hurts. Proverbs 17:28
June 27th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
God speaking, not Lori: Job 26:7-14
“He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing. He binds up the water in His thick clouds, yet the clouds are not broken under it. He covers the face of His throne, and spreads His cloud over it.
“He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, at the boundary of light and darkness. The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astonished at His rebuke.
“He stirs up the sea with His power, and by His understanding He breaks up the storm. By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent. Indeed these are the mere edges of His ways, and how small a whisper we hear of Him!
“But the thunder of His power who can understand?”
June 27th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Lori -
Thanks, I think we all needed that. This discussion astonishingly has brought about the most disagreement this blog has seen. Not that disagreement is bad, I just never thought this would be the topic that would be such a hotbed.
His ways are above our ways. Thanks for reminding us of that. I know I needed to read those verses.
Grace
June 27th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Ok, I’ve played it fairly safe (I don’t like that word) by responding after reading all the comments. I fully agree with Todd Johnson-U2 is the greatest band. Was U2 created with the appearance of age? This debate has been and will continue to be had in the hearts and minds of scientists, theologians, and yes…even therapists:) I started out studying geology but found humans much more interesting–and geology is taught as a religion in secular university–as is literature. There is evidence supporting both sides such as overthrust (Which you can see outside of Forest Hill) in the rock layers, carbon dating to determine how old something is or isn’t, and the like. I just can’t accept evolution’s claims based on a few things: The first being “evolutionary gaps/jumps.” For example–Lightning bugs light up the night sky (in the midwest) which signals to a potential mate. If the light was not present at the onset of creation, how would or did they make reproductive arrangements? I don’t believe that anamals adapt at the rate necessary to survive ecological changes that have been documented. For example, the giraffe(im letng go uf speling anziety) could not possibly keep up with the growth rate of the trees that supplied them food which would equal extinction. The evolutionary jumps that science requires me to believe in are far more difficult to trust than the evidence in resurecton. I personally believe that the earth was created with the appearance of age. This is a choice that does not have all the answers–and when science can’t provide all the answers, I typically say “of course it’s a mystery.” Were smart as a race–but we are finite. I know for some this is the pinnacle of belief or not. Great discussion–and I think the discussion is much better than the text. One last question/statement. Who made all of the “laws” of science? Any attempt to quantify science is an attempt to figure out the mind of God–which requires one thing–revelation. Frank–Which came first, the u2 or the christafari? This is fun!
June 27th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Lori,nice to hear from you and very refreshing.
Todd you wait tell blog #60, we could have used you back at #5 J/K. Thanks for the insight.
June 27th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
To everyone: As an old neophyte (is that a contradiction in terms?), I want to thank everyone for this discussion. I know just about zero about theology and can’t even pronounce the words that Frank uses. For the first 67 years of my life I did absolutely no investigation into matters biblical. Now I am looking for books by several authors that have come up in this blog. There is so much knowledge in the corporate you. I thank you and know that God blesses you.
June 27th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
What a day…At Pixar and the animation magicians who make it all happen!
Joy Story…AS we saw all the new innovations done at Pixar, such as the cutting edge Zoetrope, I got a chance to see my old friend Ben Burtt ( 5 Oscars for sound ). I remember when I was a Pagan and an atheist at LucasFilm that I noticed something different about Ben. He seemed to be different than every one there. He seemed to be a man of integrity. I admired him from afar and found out he was a Christian. His character really made an impression on me. His ” Christlikeness” was very attractive to me as I saw others ending marriages and basically cavorting as pagans cavort.
I agree with every thing you said Tom in your last post. And for the record..it is not heated at my end. I rather enjoy the dialectic
( that was for you Joe T.).However….
To clarify, when I mentioned Christlikeness I was hoping that my example of Whitefield and Wesely would give some indication of men who loved God and differed in their doctrine and theology. Now, I do not mean to go to the extreme and say any thing goes as long as you are Christ Like. Thats why I have mentioned the Creeds and the Confessions from the Reformation as anchors for Orthodoxy…yeah…thats the ticket.
As you know from my previous posts , I have a problem with Autonomy of the believer without an appeal to orthodoxy and to how the early church fathers understood the Gospel.
Todd A-which came first ..the u2 or the Christafari?…well, that would cause a church fracture between me and Todd and I would never go there. But definitely Christafari..
ps. Joe T…I honestly don’t know what you mean by big words? You and I may be the oldest chaps in these posts…I have to keep these whipper snappers on their toes!
ps2_P.S.
Frank hows it going with your friend?
Not good. Its kinda like the line Jack Nicholson said in ” As Good as it Gets”…”how do I come up with my female characters? I think of a man and take away reason and accountability” This line however applies to my pagan friend. His name is John and he feels my Christianity has blinded me to the Truth.
blessings and beyond caballeros!
June 27th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Whew! You guys have been busy! I just got back from a day with my kids at Donner Lake. It’s late and I’m tired. So I’ll make this brief. First, I want to apologize for going off topic again. More proof that I, more than any of you, deserve the nomination as President of the Dufus Club! Second, I’m going to respectfully bow out of this conversation and return to the topic at hand which is science and the Bible. I think we may be ready to move into the subject of miracles now. But I’ll leave that up to our U2 worshipping Pastor. It was a good discussion. Thank you for your insights Frank, Tom, Mike, Joe, Lori and Todd A. Man, I love hanging with you guys!
June 28th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Tom-Okay..I think I might be able to explain myself.
In the Good Samaritan, the Priest and Levite had the theology presumably right ( head knowledge) but it took an outsider to be Christlike and show mercy and compassion to the victim.
When Paul in 1st Corinthians said……and now I show you a more excellent way and extols the virtues of Love above Knowledge , Faith , Prophesy etc. he was directing us to be doers of the word and not just hearers. I think we all are on the same page here.
Now thats what I am talking about.
To be fair, I believe the Catholic Church believes in a Theistic Evolutionary process. However, the Church remains anti-abortion and still defines marriage as an arrangement between a Man and a Woman. The Pope has even come out against Post Modern Relativism.
ps, Ah come on Perry…I think alot of us have posted that we feel somewhat unqualified to get deep into the Science of Beginnings. Seriously, do we want to talk about punctuated equilibrium? We needed the bunny trails!
blessings
<:~)
June 28th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Frank,
Thanks for expanding on your points I agree. Also
will keep John in prayer keep us posted on how it goes.
“u2 or the Christafar,church fracture,whipper snappers”, Frank your killing me.
Perry-all nominate you for president but if elected I want to chair a good commitee.
June 28th, 2008 at 9:36 am
this might be a good time for non golfers to get in…..
Tom..I think I felt the prayer cover as I emailed an apology to him this morning. I can come off strong, although I don’t mean to. The written word is so powerful and I guess I needed to extend am olive branch to John. I fell on the sword .
ps. I lose my grace when I attempt to golf. It frustrates me to no end.
June 28th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Wow, exciting iron-sharpening this week!
I didn’t love this chapter much, because I’m not very scientific. My 12-year old daughter’s orthodonist has learned to deal with her at the appointments, because I’ve quit trying to pretend I understand what he’s doing to her teeth. While they discuss things I usually stare vapidly out the window wondering if rain means the angels are crying. My mind just doesn’t retain, nor even grasp stuff in the first place in order to retain. So when I read this chapter it was like reading Math equations for 29 minutes. However, one sentence jumped out at me and made the torturous chapter worth it for me: It was discussing miracles, pg. 86: “There can’t be a God who does miracles.” If there is a Creator God, there is nothing illogical at all about the possiblility of miracles. After all, if he created everything out of nothing, it would hardly be a problem for him to rearrange parts of it as and when he wishes. To be sure that miracles cannot occur you would have to be sure beyond a doubt that God didn’t exist, and that is an article of faith. The existence of God can be neither demonstrably proven or disproven.” This was much like the premise CS Lewis used in “Miracles”. (Why is so shocking that the same diety who causes the wheat to grow could speed up the process and make a lot of bread out of it?)
As for evolution and dealing with unbelievers: Do any of you ever podcast Way of the Master Radio? They do a lot of street-witnessing. Occasionally, the witnessee will bring up evolution. The Christian will ask kindly, “Which Evolution facts convinced you that it was a true theory?” Almost invariably, the unbeliever has no answer. The gentlemen discussing evolution in this blog know hands-down more about the theory than the average unbeliever.
Lastly, the Pastor-Larry link disturbed me a bit; Mostly his views on Psychology and the sufficiency of Scripture. I don’t think he’s a wolf or anything, but he’s clever enough to be potentially stumbling.
July 2nd, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Just thought I’d post this link in response to this quote:
“Now that the human genome has been mapped, as have the genomes of many other organisms, the collective evidence from biology, genetics, anthropology, physics, chemistry, biochemistry, molecular biology, geology, paleontology, and archeology is so completely overwhelming that no professional natural scientist anywhere now doubts the validity of Darwinian evolution”
That’s not exactly true: http://www.dissentfromdarwin.org/