CHAPTER FOUR: THE CHURCH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SO MUCH INJUSTICE
June 8th, 2008 by Todd Johnson
The title of this chapter is the next objection some have against God and His Church. Many people who take an intellectual stand against Christianity do so against the backdrop of personal disappointment with Christians and churches.
If Christianity is all it claims to be, shouldn’t Christians on the whole be much better people than everyone else? That is a legitimate question, but just as legitimate is the fact that the church is filled with immature and broken people who still have a long way to go emotionally, morally, and spiritually. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.
Fanaticism has also turned many off. But think of people you consider fanatical. They’re overbearing, self-righteous, opinionated, insensitive, and harsh. Why? It’s not because they are too Christian but because they are not Christian enough. What strikes us as overly fanatical is actually a failure to be fully committed to Christ and His gospel, the gospel that says our righteousness is not our own but is the righteousness of Christ, leaving us no room for pride or boasting.
These thoughts and many others by Tim Keller underpin the reality that though the church has indeed been responsible for so much that is wrong, this doesn’t really discredit the truth about God, Jesus, the human dilemma, and the remedy that God has deposited in His Church (The pillar and ground of Truth – 1 Tim 3:15).
Whether you’re reading the book with us or not, feel free to share your own thoughts & experiences.
As I read this chapter I found myself often committing to memory a lot of Keller’s arguments on the chapters issue. I really liked the above-mentioned “a church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints”. And the reiteration that the Bible beats anyone to a critique of religion was a golden point.
Perhaps the most overlooked facet of American history got a spotlight in this chapter: the Civil Rights Movement. I used to ask my mother about her role in this event. In her mind she always equated it more with her mother’s (my grandmother’s) faith than their race. The urgency and insistency came from the church, not political figures. My mother didn’t identify with the church and also had little interest in the integration efforts. Correlation? I think so.
I appreciate Keller’s wisdom on this topic and look forward to an opponents reply to the statement:
“A central message of the Bible is that we can only have a relationship with God by sheer grace. Our moral efforts are too feeble and falsely motivated to ever merit salvation”.
I am a sheep that fights conforming to one worldly church over another. But, I understand the need for relationships with Christians for a myriad of reasons. I find myself drawn to humble Christians. It was a humble Christian (one open about his brokenness) that lead me to Jesus.
I had service tech at my house last night. I brought up Jesus. He shot back, “I have faith, but we don’t go to church because we got tired of fake, self-righteous people judging us.”
I think of salt. The right amount on your meal is great, too much destroys the entire meal. I think Christians perceived of being self righteous (too much zeal) just need to balance the salt ratio. Here’s to practicing humility and following the beatitudes!
*full disclosure, I am not reading along with y’all.
Myra – Great hearing from you. Your insights are always very well articulated.
I too love the point made of sheer grace saving us. That IS the central message of the Bible and we need to keep that central to our lives and witness in this world.
Mikey – Too much salt? Interesting picture you’ve put in my head. I’ve never thought of it like that, but you’re point is spot on.
I do have one question for you – You mentioned your fight against conforming to a ‘worldly church’. What is a ‘worldly church’? I guess being a pastor I want to make sure that I don’t have one or bring people to one.
“Worldly church” being churches on the earth, the heavenly church being our goal/final destination. To expand… earthly churches are full of sinners (including me). I suffer from pointing a finger at sinners in the church and use them as an excuse for my weekly attendance/enthusiasm (or lack thereof). I hope my association with my church does not have me pigeonholed by others in the community; guilty by association. In other words I have a hard time attaching my name to a church with hundreds of sinners (acknowledging that I am one too)…I would much rather be asked “are you a Christian” versus “where do you go to church?”
My family physically attends a church other than Crossroads (I am an ipod regular) and wed night guest at Crossroads. I promote Crossroads for those looking to connect with Christ. You all have something special at Crossroads. ‘Nough said.
As a certain bald gentleman in “The King and I” once said: “Is a puzzlement”. Keller notes that others see as fanatics those who speak out against (among other things) evolutionists and what is taught in public schools. I try to put that together with Doctor Tacket’s spirited defence of intellegent design (in The Truth Project), and his disenchantment with his own school experience with a professor who did not believe that the chair Tacket was sitting on was really there. Would Doctor Tacket be considered a fanatic?
Another even older movie was titled “The Razor,s Edge” (with Tyrone Power). It has nothing at all to do with anything except for the title. Do we as Christians have to balance on the edge of a razor blade all the time so as not to offend anyone? I think I already know the answer to my own question, but I don’t have to like it. Doesn’t sound very humble does it? Im still on milk (or maybe pablum by now). Besides, I started this at 0 dark thirty this morning.
This chapter was even more thought provoking than the earlier chapters. I keep going over it, vascillating between being upset with the author and doubting my own position on things. Is a puzzlement.
Oops, misspelled intelligent and vacillating. At least.
Thanks Mikey. I understand. I hope that Crossroads can be one of those churches (and there are lots of them) that always points and connects people to Christ and NOT to itself.
The Church (with a big “C”) often resembles many of our biological family dynamics. Don’t most families have an uncle that lives in a basement somewhere, a grandfather that drinks too much, a nephew in juvie, some overachievers, underachievers, mouthy siblings… resentments, misunderstandings, etc… ALL with the same last name? That’s what the church looks like to me. Am I embarrassed by some of the churches out there? Yes. Do I not want to be “guilty by association”? Definitely. Are they my family none the less? Yep.
Did Jesus die for the whole lot of us? I believe so.
Joe – I can completely understand your fear of being afraid to offend when the gospel itself is offensive. With Paul, we must not be “ashamed of the gospel”. And at the same time I can completely understand where Keller is coming from where we haven’t offended with “the gospel” but with ourselves and behaviors. We don’t have to run around making apologies to everyone for the history of the church and churches, or for what we believe to be true and false. I personally want to show the world what a healthy Christian and church looks like with humility and without compromise.
Just some thoughts.
Pastor Todd, God has set you a monumental, awesome task and I pray that you succeed. You have kept Jacque and I in your church four and a half years with the methods you use. God bless you.
A lot of good stuff in this chapter. It felt like it started a little weak and then picked up steam.
I like that Keller first clearly lays out the argument against Christianity, and then – in each case – talks about why it is a valid argument before starting to disassemble it.
I’m finding myself frequently surprised by the approach he takes to refute each argument. I really enjoyed the discussion of Civil Rights (which Myra talked about in a far more eloquent way than I can hope to). I also liked the part about how the virtues that we’re using to talk about the sins of the church are – in fact – from the Bible.
As I was reading last night, something about his style struck me. Maybe the fact that he was talking about Wilberforce, and I happen to be reading a Piper book about Wilberforce (Roots of Endurance) at the same time.
Its a bit off-topic, but I am really interested in this new movement (counter movement?) of guys like Keller and Driscoll – centering around Piper it seems. Not that an emphasis on Biblical accuracy is a new thing, but it seems like there is a new, stronger emphasis on it. A new appreciation for church history, and of Calvinism in particular. I’m eager to see what changes this might be leading to in the American church.
Mikey, I think it may have some relevance to the things you’ve seen in the church, that have turned you off.
So much in this chapter to chew on.
I share in Chris’ liking of the Church critiquing its self argument. You cant judge somethings morality without having a basis for morality. The very same virtues that Marx critiqued the church with were “borrowed” from the church. Amusing!
This chapter was actually very convicting. Fanatical I am prone to be from time to time. The absolute necessity of humility in relationships with nonbelievers screamed at me from these pages. Fanaticism with no humility reminded me of the Romans verse “they have zeal for God. But not according to knowledge.”
I think Fanatics who truly know Christ in a deep deep way can be really good for the cause of the Kingdom. For in that relationship with Christ they find humility. I pray that we could all grow to know Christ more so that our faith becomes fruitful not fanatical. Me being first in line to get humbled!
Page 60 “Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be servant of all” Mark 10:43-45
“In Jesus’s and the prophet’s critique, self-righteous religion is marked by INSENSITIVITY to issues of social justice, while true faith is marked by profound concern for the poor and marginalized.” …”The Bible teaches us that our treatment of them equals our treatment of God.”
“Social justice and profound concern for the poor and marginalized…” I must be honest and say I do not see much of that in the overall body of Christ in America. Christians in other countries? Yes! Here? It is minimal at best. I know of more secular groups, (and rock stars), that seem to want to help those in need….how humbling is that? Now what do we do?
Chris, Mike, and Ken – I liked what you guys had say! Ya know, for a book that suppose to be a discussion on how to reach the lost it feels more a more like a veiled critique of the church. And what are we studying on Sundays and Wednesdays? James and 1 John. Is God trying to say something to us? Hmmmmm?
Perry- Nice to have you back in the loop with your comments!
“Social justice and profound concern for the poor and marginalized…” I must be honest and say I do not see much of that in the overall body of Christ in America. Christians in other countries? Yes! Here? It is minimal at best. I know of more secular groups, (and rock stars), that seem to want to help those in need….how humbling is that? Now what do we do?
I think there are lots of cases of Churches involved with their communities and the world at large.
For a bit of backdrop. D. Bonhoeffer challenged the Church at large to become active in the face of evil. In his case it was Hitler and he paid for resistance with his life. If we fast forward to Guiterrez and Liberation Theology we see Social Justice as the chief aim of the church and an embracing of Marxist rhetoric and pointing blame at a capitalistic system that alienates and exploits the poor worker. The Church in this “contextualization” is to spearhead a transformation or ” Change” of the present system.
So one must ask..Why did Jesus resist the Zealot’s of his time and not call for the overthrow of the occupying Roman Army?
I remember when Pat Robertson started Operation Blessing and helped poor communities with food and shelter. They were one of the first responders to Katrina. I could go on about hundreds of Christian Charities , Soup Kitchens, Adoption Services , Pregnancy Assistance, WorldVision etc., Prison Ministries, helps to Africa and Mexico etc., check out the Mercy Ship. The media does not show the good being done in the name of Christ. Check out the new station ” NRB” on Dish which features Christian Cultural programming….
What I am saying is the Social Gospel ends up transforming the Church and not the other way around and you end up with the likes of Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his theology of victimization.
As for Rock Stars…come on…theirs is the grand gesture that is dubious at best…especially the corruption in such events as LiveAid.
Nice points Frank. I am speaking of small, local churches that I have been a part of and /or visited over the years.With so many churches around, imagine the impact they would have on the community if even half of them had a solid permanent program that was always keeping the needs of those that suffer in the forefront.
I am aware of the big and developed ministries that do this work, and it is wonderful. I was referring to individal churches and people. Sorry if that was unclear.
As far as the “motives” of rock stars, I wouldn’t know or want to answer for them. (True,they have a camera on them; they can be seen.)
I think being involved, for example with the homeless, (like at our specific church), is uncomfortable for many folks, me included. But, I think we are moving in the right direction. Nevertheless, good points you made.
Frank – Very well said! This chapter has really challenged me to think a lot harder about where the Word of God stands on Christian activism and social responsibility and what the role of the church is on planet earth. I’m still investigating but I’ve had the same things go through my mind that you’ve just expressed. Ultimately the Word has to be the final authority.
Ken – Thanks…I’ve been trying to listen and ponder more and talk less. So many good things have been said so far and I’ve learned a lot that I never would’ve thought of myself. One thing I’ve desired is that this not be an exorcize in my own intellectual prowess but an opportunity to edify my brothers and sisters. I can get a little full of myself sometimes so It’s good for me to take a more passive role now and then.
Todd – When we are done with this book we should all get together and have a potluck. I would really like to meet all these guys!
There is a lot in this chapter!!! Had to read it over several times. Would like to take a shot at the questions on page 52, in my own simply way. (1) Why are there so many non-Christians living better lives? We might think they are, but they are not. We have the Grace of our Lord in our lives and that’s it!!!! (2) Why has the institutional church supported war, injustice & violence over the years? Greed and pride. (3) The issure of fanaticism. This is a very sad thing in our Christian world today. Truely living in the Lords Grace and letting the Holp Spirit direct your life, you can be a true witness for HIM. Page 53: Church officials seem to be at least (if not more) corrupt than leaders in the world at large. I DISAGREE with this. Yes, it is true that the press has a field day with this, and it seems that there are many, but look at all the corruption with the politicians and the goverment. It does not even compare!!! Hey, I have a daughter that is bipolar and has been homeless many times. I have been blessed, that were people out there that reached out to her and helped. I even have a dear friend that has no use for the homeless…sad.
Hey, you guys… can I come to the pot luck if you have one… being I am a gal?
Blessings..
TW – “Guys” is my way of saying everyone, girls included.
Also I would agree with your disagreements. There are 2 other statements, one on pg 52-53 and one on pg 54 that I would also question.
“Church communities seem, if anything, to be characterized by more fighting and party spirit than do other voluntary organizations”.
I think this is way too broad a statement to make without giving some evidence to back it up. It may be true and then again it may not be.
“Good character is largely attributable to a loving, safe and stable family and social environment…”
I would replace the word “largely” with the word “partially”. I’ve met many people who have had terrible childhoods but grew up with excellent character.
Good perspective about how to view the homeless TW. They have great value to God. If Jesus were here in body,perhaps he might make his home among them.
Ken… I am sure our Lord would be right there with the homeless, waiting to see, WHO would feed Him and them.
Perry… yes, I agree on that count also. (page 52-53)
Hey, maybe we should all get together and write a book.
Blessings,
“Ken… I am sure our Lord would be right there with the homeless, waiting to see, WHO would feed Him and them.”
I sometimes think about that scripture in Hebrews, were it says that we have unknowingly entertained angels, when I see homeless people. Pretty awesome thought to think that we may have fed or denied a messenger sent to us from the Lord.
there’s something very tangible about giving someone a meal to eat in the name of Christ. Like we are studying in James. Faith in action.
Great discussion here over the last couple of days. Good stuff I’ve been reading, only now getting a chance to chime in a little.
Chris – Good comments, and you’re right – There IS a movement that is really focused in on Biblical accuracy. That excites me (it should any pastor) and I’m not ashamed to link arms with lots of these guys that have never been in my circle of influence and call them brothers and friends. Biblical accuracy is an absolute must! I will say though that there is the danger of a bunch of guys getting ‘heady’ and stopping there. Much of what you and I are witnessing is a reaction to mindless and emotional church experience where the right program and package can grow a church. That stuff is nauseating to many of us, and human nature is to react to that by saying ‘we are the true and accurate Christians that love doctrine and read Piper!’, etc. To this day I cannot read Piper. I’ve tried. I could handle the Swans are not Silent series because I love biographies, but it drives me nuts that every three pages (no matter what the subject matter) he has to incorporate one of the ‘five points’. I don’t think he has to do that and I wish he wouldn’t. Lloyd-Jones didn’t, neither does Alistair Begg. They all believe the same stuff, are reformed, and exceptionally bright and gifted, but they lead with the Bible and not a big “R” or five points.
This is starting to sound anti-Piper… I really don’t mean it to. I do like him, got to hear him in Seattle this year, and I look forward to hearing him in Ohio in the spring. Back to my original point – I am a little worried about the generation of young men that are building lives and ministries with John Piper (or any other man or organization) at the center. Let’s be Bible guys! Let’s be all about Jesus! Both mind and heart engaged in love for God and love for people!
Ken wrote – “Good perspective about how to view the homeless TW. They have great value to God. If Jesus were here in body,perhaps he might make his home among them.”
He definitely was at home with the homeless. He loved the loveless and outcast in ways nobody else did. He walked among them; fed them; healed them; and he taught them. By the way: Did you hear about the young man in college ( I think it was Berkley studying medicine – I’ll have to check my facts – that dropped out of his aspiring future in school to become homeless so that he could live among and help the homeless?! Somebody needs to look the guy up and read his story. I wonder how his parents felt about that?
While Jesus was at home with the homeless, Jesus was equally at home with the rich. He dined with them; befriended them; called some His disciples; and he taught them as well (warned them on several occasions if I recall).
Here’s a controversial thought: I have observed that many people in the church have a harder time with the rich than they do with the poor. I know I’m generalizing really badly, but I just want to throw out there the thought that there are many that have hearts that bleed for the underprivileged and hearts that are hardened toward wealth, success & abundance (however it is that we define it). Yes, there are rich persons that look down on those that ‘don’t have’ (poor; homeless; etc. etc.) but does anybody else see how we can be just as prideful and wrong to look down on a person because he ‘has’?
One final thought: When I drive down the road and see somebody that is clearly homeless, the thought I often have (and it really strikes me deeply at times) is the thought of the value of a soul. What I mean is this – if I really believe my Bible to be true then I believe that each and every one of us has something of equal worth – A SOUL. There is not one of us that is going to live longer than another (into eternity), and there is not one of us that is more or less valuable to God than another.
We place a value on a person often times based on what they have or don’t have. We need to place the value where God places it. And then act accordingly.
“I am sure our Lord would be right there with the homeless, waiting to see, WHO would feed Him and them.”
“I sometimes think about that scripture in Hebrews, were it says that we have unknowingly entertained angels, when I see homeless people. Pretty awesome thought to think that we may have fed or denied a messenger sent to us from the Lord.”
I would add another insight here to the “compassion” of the homeless. I have actually taken in a ” Homeless” person when I lived in Marin and I gained many insights into why ” Mark” was a “Street person”. Mark , seemed to judge society and blamed all his problems on “Them”. I lined up jobs for him, mostly in construction, and I had a hard time waking him up before 12:00. It reminded me of the proverb of a little sleep and a little slumber and poverty overtakes us.
In San Anselmo, we had a person called ” Walking Man”. He slept on the street and was continually and daily walking the streets, back and forth. When I inquired who this man was and where did he come from, I was told that his family was one of the wealthiest in Marin and that ” Walking Man” preferred to live on the streets…he had caught his wife with another man and lost it. His family, who took pity on him, always made sure he had the best shoes to wear , which he did.They all discovered St. Vincents Soup Kitchen ( referred to as ” Vinnies” )
I have preached repeatedly at the Redwood Rescue Mission in Santa Rosa. I have dined with homeless and encouraged them. But, I do not over pity them. Many have chose this lifestyle and some have not. Many, even if they were given a home, apt. etc , lack the skill sets to maintain and keep a residence. They are also prideful.
I over the years have more compassion for the Widow and orphan because their situation was imposed on them by circumstances they could not control.
I have more compassion for the single mother who is valliantly working 2 shifts to make ends meet and I have more compassion for the poor mexican who illegally crosses the border to work and provide food for his family. I understand his desperation..I grew up that way.
I have no lofty self righteous compassion for the bum.
TW – When you commented on church leaders being at least as corrupt as other world leaders, I reread the paragraph and noticed there was no note number on the comment. Keller uses many notes as sources for his comments but not this one. I usually file this kind of comment in the round file. But speaking of notes, some of the best of the book can be found there. If you haven’t already, check out numbers 2 and 4 for this chapter.
I think I’m going to have to quit being part of this discussion. I’m getting convicted on too many fronts at once!
Don’t over value Piper (or any man). Yes! Right! Yikes!
Have compassion for the homeless, but let it be for their souls, and not for their situation. Ouch and ouch!
Don’t let this discussion just be about the head, and not the heart. Ugh!
- In all seriousness, I am really enjoying (and benefiting) from what all of you have to say. Also, Todd – as a side note. I so appreciate that you are out front and honest with your views on ideas and authors.
In some strange way, I think the fact that you are honest, and that you don’t hide the fact that much of it is personal preference (rather than based on lofty ideals) helps stem the natural tendency of a flock to develop a cult of personality around their pastor.
It also lends weight to the what really matters – Christ and him crucified.
Chris – You’re awesome!
I get the feeling that all of us feel pretty free to be honest here and even disagree at times, and then keep on.
Thanks for your input & insights, I find them all very good and you’re making me think which is always a good thing. I need to think a lot more than I do.
Frank – I cant tell you how many times I wrote a paragraph and then deleted it with subject matter similar to yours. I applaud your strait forwardness. I will say that the reason I didn’t end up posting what I had written was twofold.
1)I have been known and pegged in some small groups as being a tad divisive. Which has usually been done in the spirit of provoking genuine thought, and not to divide. However I can see how this can lead to bad ends and in fact stumble people.
2)I started thinking about true compassion and realized something. Jesus had compassion on just about everyone he came in contact with… including prideful, self destructive, drunkards. So even if a homeless person did “make his bed.” I still think Christ would have compassion and seek a way to serve him. just my opinion.
Todd- I too have had trouble reading Piper but for different reasons. I have trouble tracking with what he writes sometimes. Seems like he crams a TON of meditation insight into a chapter and I’m left spinning after words.
I do however LOVE his preaching. I cant get enough. I can admit, as Chris has, that I hold him in high esteem. And do agree that the focus should never be on the man but what the Spirit is saying through the man. Which to this point I believe I have been doing.
In Pipers defense I would like to say one thing. He is a Calvinist through and through, and does make it a point to pound “R” theology. He does however, if we agree or not, believe that his calling from God is to “herald” Gods sovereignty in all things to the Glory of Christ. Most of his passion stems from his desire to be faithful to that message.
I’m not saying I agree with what he is doing, or even that I agree completely with his theology. I just know that,since I started listening to Piper, Jesus for the first time in my Christian walk has really seemed “beautiful” to me. Which has manifested itself in more ways then I can attest!
Todd – Get over it and worship Piper!
Chris – Stop being so sensitive to the Spirit!
Mike – You’re being divisive again!
Mike,
As a former Atheist and rebel provocateur , I have developed a thick skin in the arena of ideas. I personally love the give and take of contrasting thought and I just take it for granted that those on a blog are used to a healthy respectful exchange. Just imagine the strength of mind that Paul must have had to get up in front of the philosophers in Greece. Muy Macho!
I have already deleted 2 of my posts in the past as I did not think that they would edify the conversation. I do see however the politically correct church thing to deify the homeless as if their condition was more to be pitied than the father and mother working vast hours to make ends meet, pay a mortgage, drive their kids around and save up for a vacation. A relative of mine became homeless when her husband lost his job and had a bank foreclose on their home. They ended up living with us for several months, which was not easy…I could not let them go on the streets. And they are now doing better and thriving. There is a difference between the institutional homeless and those thrust into homelessness as a result of dire consequences. For example…see the movie ” The Pursuit of Happiness”…one of the most uplifting movies I have ever seen!
I do have compassion on the homeless and that is why I mentioned that I was involved with them so much. One of my best college friends has been living in his van in Marin for 20+ years. He has come to know Christ, but overuse of LSD has disabled his cognitive faculties. And he comes from a very wealthy family and pride has kept him from contacting his family. Very Sad . We met at USC.
My dictum has been..Say what you mean, mean what you say , just don’t be mean when you say it. If I sounded mean…please forgive me.
As for Todd, the fact that he has not kicked me out of the church is testament to his christian long suffering and lovingkindness. He tolerates my semi-Erasmianism.
And the comment of the week goes to … (insert drum roll here)….
PERRY! (comment #32)
Good form old chap! Good form!
Here’s a controversial thought: I have observed that many people in the church have a harder time with the rich than they do with the poor. I know I’m generalizing really badly, but I just want to throw out there the thought that there are many that have hearts that bleed for the underprivileged and hearts that are hardened toward wealth, success & abundance (however it is that we define it). Yes, there are rich persons that look down on those that ‘don’t have’ (poor; homeless; etc. etc.) but does anybody else see how we can be just as prideful and wrong to look down on a person because he ‘has’?
Isn’t anybody going to take a stab,(a “loving” stab)at Todd’s potentially hot topic? I’d like to hear some feedback.
Ken, There is no way I can respond to your #35 about wealthy people. I know a lot of rich Christians (and I am one of them) but none of them have any money.
Frank – I enjoyed “The Pursuit of Happyness”, too. Remember how the church in San Francisco was an integral part of helping Chris Gardner when he was homeless?
Okay Ken, here goes….
Gore Vidal exemplified the unregenerative heart when he spoke…” when I see my colleagues prosper, there is a part of me that dies”
A preacher once said…most Christians can weep with those that weep, but have a harder time rejoicing with those that rejoice.”
I refer us now to 1 Timothy 6:6-19 where Paul talks about riches to Timothy. Discuss…..
The Christian world view is really a revolution of values. And the challenge by Jesus is still relevant today….”For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also!” Mat 6:21
So envy of the rich or our judgement of them really exposes our hearts.
I’ll take a stab…Oh yes, we can be very pridefull and wrong to look down on a person because he “has.” It’s called being jealous. And, we have all done it, one time or an other during our life time. Probably more that we would like to admit. I have known very rich people and some just rich. Some, you would never know, they had money and the others, would let you know right away. The difference was, the ones that you would never know, were VERY compassionate and giving. The others were, just plain snobs.
I don’t look down on these people, but feel sorry for them, as some have no idea of what real happiness is. And, are caught up in material things. Not that having is wrong, it’s great. When it is the most important thing in your life, it is wrong. No matter what you have, I have found, by giving from your heart in love, in any situation, you are blessed. This can be anything. Example: You are going to work on a retreat, give up your time etc. Thinking “I” can help. And, then you come home, just blown away with the blessings the Holy Spirit has graced you with. ALWAYS in giving from your heart, (it is a joy) you receive!!!!
I had a friend that was having trouble just wearing a blouse and jeans to church, as she felt so under dressed. I shared with her, how Corrie ten Boom had TRAVELED the world wearing a cotton dress and black tied up shoes. And, that Jesus looks at her heart, not what she was wearing. Just those few words, kept her in church.
When I was growing up, my grandmother and my mother, (IRISH) never turned a man or women away from her door, that asked for a plate of food. Nor, ever question them, why they did not have a job, etc. My question is, why do we even ask? Jesus never did. Blessings..
ps. If you don’t know who Corrie is, get the book, The Hiding Place. You will really learn what love, giving and forgiveness is!!!
Hi Everyone,
I’ve sat a couple of chapters out because, frankly, you all say the things I’m thinking better than I could, so I just read and go “Oh, yes, that’s it!” And, I accidentally skipped ahead to the Hell chapter so I have nothing to say on this topic.
But I couldn’t resist getting a word in on Piper; Todd, I agree, he’s not consistantly my favorite, but for different reasons. His books are sort of hard to read, and sometimes his preaching seems rambling or not focused. It seems like he takes chillions of words to make a point. It reminds me of Frances Schaeffer; You know there’s great stuff there, but pleeeese, give it to me and make it simple! And, like Schaeffer, when I stick with him, he’s said a few things that have been HUGE moments of clarity in my walk. His little book “5o Reasons Christ Had to Die” (or something like that) was amazing, especially the last pages. I also like the “sermon jams” you can get online of him and others, with cool music in the back, because they take just clips, powerful moments from his long messages.
I find him and the new gang of “Charismatic Reformed” guys (Mahanney, Harris, Grudem) very interesting. I love how passionate, yet doctrinal they are. Mostly, I love how eager to humbly unify with other leaders they are for the sake of the Gospel. As I write this, my grown kids are attending the Resolved Conference where Piper, Randy Alcorn, John MacArthur, CJ Mahanney and others are speaking. Kind of a mixed bag theologically. I didn’t see this kind of thing happening 25 years ago. Pretty cool.
Great comments, Book Club, loving, respectful, and thoughtful. Can’t wait for the H-E-Double Hockey Stix one.
Ahem…. sorry about the last sentence in my entry. Hell isn’t a place to be flippant about.
Well said on Piper Todd.Were called to be diciples of Christ
(Christians)not Calvinists,Arminians,Puritans,or Crossroadians. Pastors should be preaching the whole counsel of God not always trying to promote or avoid a particular attribute of God.
Sorry spelled disciple wrong.
Perry your little triad comment there at #32 made me laugh so hard. I seriously laughed for like 3 minutes… then at work I remembered it and laughed some more… thanks for that.
Tom- I love you buddy
Everyone – This discussion has been outstanding. I have enjoyed so much everybody’s comments. There is a lot of thought going into this and I find myself build up, edified, challenged and encouraged (and even laughing at times, which is good).
GREAT STUFF!
I will take Father’s Day off and post on Monday the next chapter (which is a really good one and a very hot topic). I hope that all of us will find even more clarity on it as we read the chapter and discuss it further.
Michele – I totally agree with your comments on Piper. He does say an awful lot in his sermons but I love listening to him so much that I will listen to a single sermon several times to get everything he’s said. I feel a little sorry for his congregation though because they can’t rewind him during the service. He’s much better in his books. I’m reading “Don’t Waste Your Life” right now. Good book! I’m glad the Lord has given us such a variety of teachers, some deep, and some a little less deep. Mahaney is of the same vein as Piper but a little easier to follow. Then there’s that Johnson guy! I’m still trying to figure him out! I think we all need to pitch in and get him the entire collection of Piper!
All of you are a blessing to my life and growth. Lord bless you all!
Perry, if you’re a sermon-geek like me you might check out http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org Go to the resource library and podcast tons of greats like Mahanney, et al. There’s an outstanding sermon on Imputation by Kenneth Maresco you might like. Piper’s on there as well.
As for the Johnson guy, (suck-up-to-the-pastor-alert) we’re loving the preaching here; Man, this Sunday I felt like I should’ve just been in Get Smart’s dome of silence while I listened cus it was piercing my heart big time. I’d read about the Whitfield and Wesley fall-out and had taken a smug pleasure in feeding resentments I harbor. When I heard the comment George made about his brother it killed me in a good way.
Hey all. I’ve missed out until this chapter. All of my fam had strep. Great discussion. I’m a Piper fan and not a Piper fan-atic. Desiring God impacted my life during seminary. It helped me connect back to my heart after being in the academic world.
We’re all fanatics.
The question I got from this chapter is “what am I willing to sacrafice to end slavery.” Of course not slavery in the traditional sense–but slavery in a personal and coporate sense. Christ sacraficed himself for me to end slavery to sin and death–my sin and death.
Blessings
T
Todd – Welcome back!
“Piper fan and not a Piper fanatic” – well stated. Me too. Well, I wouldn’t call myself a fan… but I love his devotion and enthusiasm.
Frankly, I never heard of Piper until I read the posts. Where have I been? Having gone to his website , I see something happening here.
For a little background, I have been listening to quite a few lectures at RTS ( Reformed Theological Seminary )on iTunesU. On the subject of Church and Culture , one professor claimed that the Evangelical Church claims to be against Relativism but in actuality is unwittingly autonomous and relativistic. How? He says that by claiming a strong emphasis on Sola Scriptura that ultimately the individual is the sole judge. Evangelicals are taught even to question the words of the Pastor and seek the answers in God’s word for himself for verification. The professor went on to say that there is scant deference to the Creeds, the church councils, the confessions ( like the Westminster Confession ) . In essence, he says the Evangelical Church has ultimately no higher authority than one’s private interpretation.
Thus, I can understand Piper’s appeal to the Westminster Confession and the biblical 5 points of Calvinism. He is appealing to Heteronomous rather that autonomous interpretation.
Francis Beckwith just became a Catholic for the very reason that he felt that the Evangelical Church had unwittingly adopted the secularism of the individual over Authority.
The classes have a least made me rethink alot of my positions. But I still lean towards Augustine’s Free Will.